28-04-2005 04:04									#1
	Strategically - where is all this going??? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thought I would throw out some ideas and get some reaction as to the big picture - which is getting both more complex, and darker in tone.

In the Euphorica, BOH, Babylon alliance discussion, I was OK with the assualt on DR plan. It trimmed one civ. It gained us friends and made sure we were on the side of the strong, and the war was well away from us.

You will also see in the chat that I - and the snoopy of Euphorica, questioned BOH strongly regarding the A-M assault. Chrisius got very short with us whenever I brought it up. Now we know why given their land acquisition objectives, which were not shared at the time.

So - where do we go from here. Some general plans...

1. We can go along with the plan - but it now looks like Euphorica gets DR's land and BOH gets Ankh-Morpork. That doesn't wor out too well for us.

2. We can go along with the plan, on the understanding that BOH share the A-M land with us. I'm not sure they will agree.

3. We can go along with the plan, but start discussion secretly with Euphorica regarding taking out BOH next.

4. We can call off the plan, wish them both luck, and go back to a neutral state - making sure we are friends with the Lost Boys.

5. We can contact A-M, Lost Boys. and DR, explain the situation, and orgainize an alliance of 4 civs versus BOH, and Euphorica.

6. We can .... (you fill in the blank)

How do you feel about things? I am not going to do this as a poll as the answers are not that singular and clear-cut.

I am having serious doubts about proceeding with the alliance if BOH is even half-way serious about their border proposal.

	28-04-2005 04:43									#2
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I've become leery of both the idea of allying with DR and the idea of allying with Euphorica. Allying with Euphorica doesn't seem to get us anywhere with the BOH border situation (though perhaps we can force that te change) and DR likely wouldn't get us anywhere either. I see BOH and LB as our main concern at the moment; we need to establish borders that give us a competitive amount of land.

	28-04-2005 05:25									#3
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The idea of getting ex-Ank-Morphic land from BOH for attacking DR instead of DRs land is bizzare.

If our forces are going to be involved in a war with any civ, we should get some of the cities from the civ we are attacking. It should be in porportion to the efforts taken, so if we are to get one city, we send just a few horsemen, but if we are to get half the terriory we should send a full force.

I don't like the idea of allying with A-M. Both their actions and BOHs indicates that A-M is doomed.

	28-04-2005 16:29									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And another question - why did A-M not ask for assistance. That seems like the natural course of action.

	28-04-2005 19:31									#5
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Let's support the war, but not with troops. That way, we can focus on science and trade, and provide our partners financial and scientific support.
Explain to them that we need to grow a bit, too: i.e., get some more land out of it.
Later, we can talk about attacking LB and get the most land from them.

	28-04-2005 20:12									#6
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I'm not sure how we would support the war, though. In despotism they don't need money to fund their troops, nor can they rush with money. The military techs of the ancient age are already known (unless you count Construction as a military tech, but even if it is, it's a defensive one).

	28-04-2005 21:26									#7
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Kloreep is correct, the next improvements for the military are all in the Middle Ages, most noteably Knights & Knight replacement UUs, and the same path includes Pikes. In addition Enginnering for bridges.

	01-05-2005 19:58									#8
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We could wish them well. That is support of some sort.

But we do have to decide. Euphorica is expecting us to come through with horsemen. And from DR's comments in the save game discussion thread, it would appear that diplomatic discussions are underway.

If we are going to back out of the military side of this alliance, then we should let them know now. We still need to honour the tech deal, which means that we have to provide math. But now knowing that the Statue of Zeus is in play (for some reason I thoght we had decided not to), I am leery about passing Math to either BoH or Euphorica.

Hey - do we want to build it?

So - the decision can be broken down into two:

1. The Military Deal

a) We stick with the military deal, where we rush to build horsemen to attack DR?

b) Or do we back out now? I can come up with the diplomatic gabblespeak to sort of lessen the repuation hit.

c) Or do we not do anything - leaving Euphorica wit the impression that we are coming? This could really hurt us in the long run.

2. The Tech Deal

a) We follow through on providing math to BOH and Euphorica? It was the deal, but the original deal was that we owuld get it from DR. We actually got it from A-M.

b) We delay on the deal. I can explain that we cannot get maths from DR and that we arecontinuing to negotiate. This may allow DR time to build SoZ, which might restore the military balance.

c) We reneg on the deal, saying DR will not trade maths - and offering some other tech down the road.

Please vote.

	01-05-2005 19:59									#9
	Got spare money?

Beta of Babylon votes:

1. b

2. b or c

	01-05-2005 22:59									#10
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My main objection to this alliance is the BOH border proposal we got. I had thought that implied in this alliance was that we all were partners in each other's wars and entitled to split land fairly equally three ways. I guess that isn't how BOH sees it.

If BOH is willing to set a more equitable border in post-AM land, my objections to the alliance would vanish.

If I am not just talking to myself and this is also the way you guys feel, I propose we just honestly set this forth to them: we want land, BOH seems to want to hem us in, and if this remains the case, we must withdraw from the DR war and reconsider our stance toward BOH (and AM ). And if we cannot get a satisfactory answer, withdraw. (And BTW Beta... no offense, but the best "gabblespeak" in the world cannot really lessen the hit of withdrawing from a committed alliance. )

	02-05-2005 00:52									#11
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Yep - you are right about that.

As to the BOH border agreement - I concur. That is the issue.

Shall I bring it to the attention of BOH?

	02-05-2005 04:05									#12
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Better yet, bring it to the attention of "the alliance" (we all keep each other informed, right? ) so that the Bards know about it too. I doubt Euphorica wants their allies withdrawing, and it wouldn't hurt to have them pressuring BOH to stop drawing our attention away from DR.

	02-05-2005 06:30									#13
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Have done so.

Also - now wondering if the A-M, LB, DR and Babylon alliance is not a better way to go. See the correspondence threads where this matter was floated by BOH - who apparently heard it from others.

They will not reveal their source, and I have to wonder if they are fishing. If in fact he was fishing, it also tells us what one of his fears are.

	03-05-2005 03:19									#14
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Ok - the big question now is where will BOH stand after last nights chat with Paddy.

snoopy from Euphorica wants to chat tonight.

	03-05-2005 04:12									#15
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Intriguing.

	13-05-2005 01:28									#16
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Do we have nukes yet?

I wanna Nuke anyone that pisses us off

	25-05-2005 18:14									#17
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Any news on where this is going? Thanks

	25-05-2005 21:38									#18
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Here's the current status from what I can figure out.

BOH did NOT eliminate AM quickly. AM seems to be alive and well.

BOH is trying to get us to commit to the previously agreed to plan of using Babylon horse to attack DR.

We have been non-committal so far - BUT WE DO NEED TO COME UP WITH A RESPONSE SOON.

We also started discussing a post-AM border, but their counter-proposal was basically unacceptable. I think we need to answer the first question (our overall stance with BOH) and then the second becomes a moot point.

According to reports - DR has connected their iron and can now produce immortals.

We got our wires crossed on some trades with Lost Boys, and they have been very quiet. This is likely simply a matter of 1889 playing the team by himslef, and not having much time for the foreign affairs stuff.

We are building nicely thanks to Klo, jon, et al.

We need to decide on some foreign policy stances, and reconnect with our neighbours diplomatically.

Any other comments or thoughts?

	25-05-2005 21:54									#19
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Yes, we definately need to get those trade deals worked out.

At the very least we should buy one of those techs being offered an a GPT payment and trade it for the other as a two-fer.

BOH's proposed boarder gives us no incentive to lift a finger to help them. Why sould we get involved in a war where we don't benifit? This is not a prelimary round where the top three players advance.

	25-05-2005 22:16									#20
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We have Monarchy in ~10 turns. Considering how expensive a tech it is, we could trade for quite a bit with it.

However, I believe Beta has brought up the possiblity of keeping it to ourselves to try to get a jump on the other teams. If we do this, we might as well start buying with gold now. (Though I don't think we have much GPT to spend before we start slowing down Monarchy.)

Myself, I'm leaning towards trading it. There aren't any other Religious civs besides AM, are there? We still get a jump on the other teams with our easy anarchy.

	25-05-2005 22:22									#21
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On BOH, I suggest we PM them and say that after mulling it over, we stick with our proposal. Perhaps mention we believe they're still getting a slightly larger piece of the vertical space?

BTW, unless AM gains an ally soon, I think they're out of the game. They may survive for a while longer, but they are finished, ultimately. With Euphorica fighting DR, I believe we're about the only ones who could do anything, and only if we rush up there soon. Too bad AM's death is heavily in our interest so long as we have a good border worked out...

I have to wonder how BOH would respond to using that as a threat. (Specifically, I mean, not just "not well" in general. )

	26-05-2005 20:49									#22
	Put an end to popups!

We need to figure this border thing out with BOH - now.

Monarchy. Trade it only if we get something of greater value for it. Maybe land. Hold this over BOH.

From these posts I see that we have reasons to distrust the BOH. We need to be careful here.

	04-06-2005 11:40									#23
	Put an end to popups!

A very devious game.