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Zkribbler

King

Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:31

Prophesy/Free Will

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Today's 'Poly philosophical paradox:

For there to be prophesy, the future must be fixed.

For there to be free will, the future must be malluable.

Can prophesy and free will both exist? If so, what is the nature of the future?

Ming

Chief Minion

Donate to the Red Cross

Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:35

28-04-2005 05:36

Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!

Remove this text

I predict that I will have to ban somebody in the future...
And that person will be exercising their Free Will

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:36

Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ignoring the fact that I don't think that's a paradox, I think the future is pretty much fixed.

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:37

Get a bigger avatar today!

I think Ming has the free will not to ban people but it is inevitable that he will.

Lancer

Emperor

Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 05:41

Put an end to popups!

A person that lived a hundred years ago had free will, but his past is known because his life has been lived. If you view things without the constraints of time then even those still alive, exercising free will, their future is also known in just the same way.

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:43

Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think I need some LSD.

Lancer

Emperor

Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 05:45

Remove this text

You will not take it because you never did.

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:47

Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
You will not take it because you never did.

Yes I did.

Lancer

Emperor

Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 05:48

Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

No you won't

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 05:49

#10

Got spare money?

Woooooh Dude! Trip Out!

Agathon

Prince

Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 05:50

#11

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I'm not doing this one again. It annoys the religious people and atheists in equal measure.

Whoha

King

The TOC is supposed to be classified guys...
Dec 2001
time: 23:35

28-04-2005 05:52

#12

Re: Prophesy/Free Will

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quote:
Originally posted by Zkribbler
Today's 'Poly philosophical paradox:

For there to be prophesy, the future must be fixed.

For there to be free will, the future must be malluable.

Can prophesy and free will both exist? If so, what is the nature of the future?

If the universe is deterministic then there is a fixed future, but to know that future is to be able to change it. so neither and both

Theben

Emperor

Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 05:52

#13

Full PM-box? Change here!

It's not a paradox, since there is no law stating both prophesy AND free will exist.

Urban Ranger

Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross

The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:35

28-04-2005 07:06

#14

Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by Theben
It's not a paradox, since there is no law stating both prophesy AND free will exist.

D'oh, of course not, since they are mutually exclusive.

BeBro

King

of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:35

28-04-2005 09:43

#15

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Hm, couldn't someone predict those things people do according to their free will?

Lul Thyme

Warlord

Quebec, Canada
Aug 2000
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 09:51

#16

Re: Re: Prophesy/Free Will

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quote:
Originally posted by Whoha

If the universe is deterministic then there is a fixed future, but to know that future is to be able to change it. so neither and both

why does knowing imply being able to change?
And why does deterministic future imply being able to know it?

Lancer

Emperor

Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 10:06

#17

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Hey, maybe that's why prophets are so vague. If the absolute events were revealed to them, then those events wouldn't occur because people would know to do something else. The ONLY prophesy that has the remotest chance of coming true are those that are so hard to see that you can only see them in hindsight.

HA!

I'm on to something here!

King

MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35

28-04-2005 10:28

#18

Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A question, people:

What's the definition of free will?

Qilue

King

Australia
Dec 1999
time: 15:35

28-04-2005 14:14

#19

Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Free will or fixed future is also dependant on whether there is a single universe or a multi-verse.

civman2000

Emperor

of the Martian Empire
Jun 2001
time: 23:35

28-04-2005 18:21

#20

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There is no contradiction. People have free will to choose what they want, but it could still be possible to know what they're going to choose anyways (not that I actually believe in prophecy...). Like what Lancer said before: we know what people did in the past, so from our perspective, it's completely determined. But does that mean they did not have free will? Or take the idea of predestination. God may know everything that's going to happen, but can still punish us for sins, because we choose to commit them.

Shi Huangdi

Emperor

Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 18:46

#21

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Foreknowledge != Foreordination

DeathByTheSword

King

soon to be a major religion
Nov 2001
time: 05:35

28-04-2005 19:04

#22

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according to the 'normal' laws of nature everthing is a reaction to an action...so the future is already done...but according to the uncertainty principle of quantium mechanics and pyhsics nothing can be sure for 100% meaning that the future still has to be decided

Kidicious

Settler

Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 20:06

#23

Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
There is no contradiction. People have free will to choose what they want, but it could still be possible to know what they're going to choose anyways (not that I actually believe in prophecy...). Like what Lancer said before: we know what people did in the past, so from our perspective, it's completely determined. But does that mean they did not have free will? Or take the idea of predestination. God may know everything that's going to happen, but can still punish us for sins, because we choose to commit them.

Now that would be a paradox.

chegitz guevara

King

Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 20:23

#24

Put an end to popups!

This is stupid.

Boris Godunov

King

Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 20:28

#25

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Starchild

Emperor

a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:35

28-04-2005 20:30

#26

Put an end to popups!

"Prophersies are tricky things you see. They never tell you the whole truth...."
-the Master Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Dis

Emperor

Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35

28-04-2005 23:01

#27

Increase Your PM Length

it's simple, there is no prophecy.

Odin

Prince

Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:35

28-04-2005 23:11

#28

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My concept of "free will" is better described as a "free won't". That is, the association areas of the neocortex act as a "veto" on our actions; basically, our large brains give us consciously mediated self control.