28-04-2005 07:56									#31
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But the idea wasn't hard to come up with. DO you think the founding fathers would have elected a King? How else would they have ruled?

What the philosophers did was analyse it, justify it, discuss it. The idea of rule by people and how much say the general populace should has been around for centuries before. They codified it into something more understandable, sure. But the founding fathers, IMHO, would still have created a democratic state, and founded the modern style of government, which the French would have copied, after seeing working.

What else would the founding fathers have done? And if you're talking about specific people, remove those specific philosophers, and another one would have come up with the idea a few years later. Removing individual people will only postpone something, whether it's the founding fathers or the philosophers.

	28-04-2005 07:57									#32
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Al Gore.

	28-04-2005 08:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's like saying Newton was less important than people who used his ideas to make gadgets.

No, as Newton's ideas were special because they were correct. It wasn't just "lets think of a way to run a country". The philosophers argued the merits, debated and would have been able to make a far better assertion about how good the system was than anyone else, but when the founding fathers were presented with the problem of how to run the US, even without those ideas already there, they would have probably done something very similar.

Moreover, the ideas weren't shown to work until someone tried that. Newton did the experiment himself. The founding fathers didn't just use the Enlightenment ideas, they showed they worked. Newton did that himself. That's at least half the work in coming up with an idea.

To come up with an idea is much easier than to show it works.

	28-04-2005 08:03									#34
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I think the British enlightenment had a lot more influence for what has survived than the continental englightenment. I know that it gave the colonials a good intellectual grounding for their new project. Who knows what would have happened otherwise?

Locke is therefore a definite candidate.

quote: even without those ideas already there, they would have probably done something very similar

It wasn't like that. The British enlightenment was intellectually rigorous and practical-minded. It was perfect scaffolding for the colonies.

	28-04-2005 08:04									#35
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Are we suppose to vote or think of people?

edit: nevermind

	28-04-2005 08:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Another interesting question is: who in the last 500 years will influence the course of the next 500 years the greatest?

John von Nuemann? Alan Turing?

Fuggidaboudit. I'm going with good ol' Adam Smith. Who, btw, deserves mentioning for the original question too... far more than Marx, obviously.

	28-04-2005 08:08									#37
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Adam Smith is good candidate for the next 500 years. Turing's good too.

Depending on how events shake out, in 500 years you might be thinking more about von Braun, however.

	28-04-2005 08:09									#38
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I'd like to revise my entry. There is one man who works have entertained and enthralled millions for 500 years, which have been transtated into more languages than any other writer and I expect will still be studied and enjoyed for another 500 years.

Willian Shakespeare.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000636/

EDIT - addition rather, both men have had an enormous influence on history.

Last edited by Qilue on 28-04-2005 at 08:14

	28-04-2005 08:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It wasn't like that. The British enlightenment was intellectually rigorous and practical-minded. It was perfect scaffolding for the colonies.

Very true. But it wasn't tried and tested, which is a far harder and more important thing, IMHO. Until then it's just an intellectual theory. Any theory, from Keynes to Locke to Newton, is just an intellectual theory until it's been tried, and could still be complete crap or true. Locke came up with the theory, argued it rigorously and defended it strongly from criticism. But he didn't test it, and that was the far harder, riskier, and IMHO, more influential part of it. I think it influenced people because it worked, not because it was intellectually rigorous.

I would suggest that something very similar would have happened without Locke. Someone else would have had the idea, as many others had in some forms, and even if they hadn't, the idea of rule by populace had been around and dismissed for a long time, and I think the founding fathers would still have opted for a modern style republic.

	28-04-2005 08:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Adam Smith. Who, btw, deserves mentioning for the original question too... far more than Marx, obviously.

For the future, I'd say Keynes over Smith. Smith's theories describes things well, but knowledge of Smiths theories doesn't really change anyones actions that much. Keynes' change the policy of governments.

	28-04-2005 08:13									#41
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I think we should stick to those who influenced the last 500 years. Everyone has a different forecast for the future.

	28-04-2005 08:16									#42
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DanS needs to make another thread, it was a very good idea. I'd do it as a public service but I've already made two today and the mods have no sense of volunteerism...

	28-04-2005 08:21									#43
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I made another thread for that.

quote: But it wasn't tried and tested, which is a far harder and more important thing, IMHO.

That's not a fair characterization. The colonies had practiced a rather fine sort of self government for about 100 years before the revolution. Most of the founding fathers had been successful politicians in their own right before the revolution and many were steeped in enlightenment thinking.

	28-04-2005 08:22									#44
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I might sound dumb, but I nominate Steve Jobs just to have another nominee.

	28-04-2005 08:29									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's not a fair characterization. The colonies had practiced a rather fine sort of self government for about 100 years before the revolution. Most of the founding fathers had been successful politicians in their own right before the revolution and many were steeped in enlightenment thinking.

But they were the ones that tested the modern style of democratic government. Locke did not. However rigorous the idea was, it was just an intellectual theory until they tested it. Just an idea of how to govern a nation. I could think of another idea now on the same topic, but it wouldn't be worth anything until someone tested it and saw if it worked. Creating the idea isn't a big deal, when it's something like that. Making the idea work is the far harder challenge, and the far more influential action, IMHO. Thus those that made it work and were influential directly from that I would consider more influential than the person that came up with the idea in the first place.

	28-04-2005 08:30									#46
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Lancer,

Why don't you just make the call? Are we talking about people who did stuff, or people who came up with ideas?

	28-04-2005 08:33									#47
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Innovation is a combination of both

anyone can make something up

unless it is put to use it IS useless

I am even more inclined to nominate ppl who, if not for them, would never get done....

	28-04-2005 08:34									#48
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Well, OK then. Among the founding fathers, I then nominate George Washington, for turning down the throne and lifetime rule, something revolutionary at the time. He also presided over the constitutional convention, which decided the form of government in detail.

Also you have Jefferson, who set down the legislative branch's mores and folquays.

	28-04-2005 08:38									#49
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Were Gutenberg or Columbus still alive in 1505?

Napoleon, for being one of the few to conquer Europe, and for shaping 19th century history
Washington, for holding together the Grand Idea that everyone else deserves more credit for but couldn't do sh*t about
ENGELS - I always thought it was a team, like Ben & Jerry, or Batman & Robin--Marx & Engels?
Robert E Lee, for holding together the Southern cause which arguably has had more impact on America than any other thing. Think about it. No civil war, and the entirity of American history post-1861 is totally different to how it actually turned out.

	28-04-2005 08:40									#50
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Kid, either or. if you think the person 'most influenced' history, and can say why, I'll put em in.

Btw, is there a limit to how many can be in a poll?

	28-04-2005 08:41									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Innovation is a combination of both anyone can make something up unless it is put to use it IS useless I am even more inclined to nominate ppl who, if not for them, would never get done....

The key word is "influencial" though.

	28-04-2005 08:47									#52
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quote: Btw, is there a limit to how many can be in a poll?

24, but you can do as others have done here and have multiple Round 1 polls, Round 2 polls consisting of those who advanced from Round 1, Round 3 polls consisting of those who advanced from Round 2, ad infinitum or until Ming pulls out the banning stick.

EDIT: but remember Lancer, only 2 threads a day

	28-04-2005 08:47									#53
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Let the choice be in the eyes of the voters.

	28-04-2005 08:48									#54
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Thanks mrmitchell

	28-04-2005 09:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Lancer, Why don't you just make the call? Are we talking about people who did stuff, or people who came up with ideas?

My nomination did both . Martin Luther... the only choice. He splintered Europe and created a Protestant creed that had a great effect on the spurring of capitalism (Protestant work ethic and all that). The competition between Protestant and Catholic Europe also stimulated technological innovation. Protestant theories also transformed Western law and pushed for a categorization of all law.

	28-04-2005 10:46									#56
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Elvis

music is the soul that yields the product of life

	28-04-2005 12:40									#57
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quote: But the idea wasn't hard to come up with. DO you think the founding fathers would have elected a King? How else would they have ruled?

Baloney. It's the hardest thing in the world to come up with ideas that change paradigms, which is what those political philosophers did.

Trust me. I know people who try to do it - it takes a rare genius to do it.

quote: What the philosophers did was analyse it, justify it, discuss it. The idea of rule by people and how much say the general populace should has been around for centuries before.

No. They invented it. The three philosophers I mentioned are primarily responsible for contractarian theory. Hobbes in particular identified collective action problems as the reason for the voluntary cession of authority to the state.

It's funny that things like this are taken for granted in non-English speaking countries. It's just the English speaking countries that are havens of anti-intellectualism. How typical that the language of boorish retards is becoming the world's common speech..

quote: They codified it into something more understandable, sure.

No they didn't they pretty much invented new ways of thinking. You just have no sense of the history of ideas. New ideas are never obvious and they are not easy to think up. They look obvious now, but that is because they have become part of the cultural commons.

quote: But the founding fathers, IMHO, would still have created a democratic state, and founded the modern style of government, which the French would have copied, after seeing working.

They might well have created a democratic state (since democracy had existed since Athens), but it would not have been one that heavily plagiarized from the writings of John Locke.

quote: What else would the founding fathers have done? And if you're talking about specific people, remove those specific philosophers, and another one would have come up with the idea a few years later.

Really? That just seems like grasping at straws. It's like saying that someone else would have written Beethoven's symphonies if he had died young. Or that someone else would have written the Brothers Karamazov if Dostoyevsky hadn't.

These people are seminal figures: they said novel things. That is why they are still studied.

quote: Removing individual people will only postpone something, whether it's the founding fathers or the philosophers.

That is a wholly risible view. I'd like to have seen the western world if Aristotle never existed. No-one has been as influential as him.

	29-04-2005 00:31									#58
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Since this is fast sinking towards page 3, I'm getting ready to make the poll later today. If you want to suggest someone it's now or never and don't ***** later.

	29-04-2005 00:32									#59
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Ronald McDonald, or whoever the founder was, for making Americans fat