03-05-2005 01:09									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It means: "I haven't originally invented the idea, and here are the credits" which is something important in the academia.

That's what footnotes are for, saying "I agree" or "I disagree" isn't proper referencing.

quote: Besides it meand "While I can oppose Bob on other issues, in this particular case, I agree with his argumentation I linked to - just so that you can better understand how Bob's argument fits into mine". Completely useless indeed

A simple "I agree with Bob" or "I disagree with Bob" doesn't add anything of substance, especially if it's tangential to the actual topic.

If your paper consists of saying if you agree or disagree with what other people's opinions are, where is the original work?

Or are you using what someone else's opinion is to bolster yours?

Either way, it seems kinda pointless to use someone else's opinion as a basis for your own in a serious academic paper.

	03-05-2005 01:16									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Either way, it seems kinda pointless to use someone else's opinion as a basis for your own in a serious academic paper.

I didn't know you were so keen of reinventing the wheel...

If Bob spent years developing a serious argumentation, that can be of use in your work (and your work doesn't have the same goals as his), why could you not use Bob's arguments? How can you help advancement if you have to redo the work that has already been done?

	03-05-2005 01:19									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I didn't know you were so keen of reinventing the wheel... If Bob spent years developing a serious argumentation, that can be of use in your work (and your work doesn't have the same goals as his), why could you not use Bob's arguments? How can you help advancement if you have to redo the work that has already been done?

You can use Bob's arguments, just don't base your arguments on his with blunt "I agree here" and "I disagree here" footnotes.

With that kind of academic laziness, we'd still be assuming the world was flat today.

	03-05-2005 01:19									#124
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If you are furthuring the argument of someone, why would you need to even indicate that you agree with that person?

	03-05-2005 01:40									#125
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Aggie's paper looks like Gibberish with a bit of Greek.

	03-05-2005 01:46									#126
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Mine is much more clear

Attachment: diplomarbeit.jpg
This has been downloaded 24 time(s).

	03-05-2005 01:48									#127
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I wuv you.

aw gosh

	03-05-2005 02:05									#128
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quote: You can use Bob's arguments, just don't base your arguments on his with blunt "I agree here" and "I disagree here" footnotes.

Unless Bob has a well-known idea, and you wish to make reference to it so that someone doesn't say "What about Bob? Didn't he say that?" or "Bob talked about that and disagreed, why hasn't Agathon noted that and pointed out why he disagrees with Bob?"

Other than that, your comments are worthless.

	03-05-2005 02:06									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If you are furthuring the argument of someone, why would you need to even indicate that you agree with that person?

Because, if you don't you can be convicted of plagiarism.

	03-05-2005 02:09									#130
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quote: Hey, I've seen worse in Academic papers. I've seen history papers in which only one line on a page was part of the paper, and the rest of the page was a footnote.

That page is a particularly egregious example of footnoting. There are a lot of footnotes overall because I don't agree with the practice of referencing in the main body like such (Phd, 80D).

	03-05-2005 02:12									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You can use Bob's arguments, just don't base your arguments on his with blunt "I agree here" and "I disagree here" footnotes. With that kind of academic laziness, we'd still be assuming the world was flat today.

Ok -- I think I see your point.

You're concerned about the poor grammar skills used by some writers, and their failure to more intelligently articulate their argument in relation to another author's work, more so than the idea itself, in using another author's work.

	03-05-2005 02:12									#132
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quote: Because, if you don't you can be convicted of plagiarism.

I am not saying don't credit the person, I am saying why can't you say that you agree within the body of the text?

	03-05-2005 02:14									#133
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Japher, you can briefly mention the author's name, and briefly state the central point. But for other details, refer readers to the source using the footnote.

	03-05-2005 02:17									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I am not saying don't credit the person, I am saying why can't you say that you agree within the body of the text?

That's mostly frowned upon. Any time you agree with someone else's work and it is tangential to the paper, you are supposed to include it in a footnote. Professors don't like that sort of the thing in the main body.

FWIW, I find nothing wrong with Agathon's use of footnotes. It's basically necessary because of concerns of plagarism.

	03-05-2005 02:19									#135
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quote: I am not saying don't credit the person, I am saying why can't you say that you agree within the body of the text?

Because, as someone else said, the idea is tangential to the main thesis. In the last piece I am talking about a piece of text that people have been writing about for 2500 years. There are all sorts of different interpretations of it. I'm trying to locate my view within that matrix. That part of the thesis is where I deal with more general stuff that a lot of people write about. Later on I am dealing with stuff that depends on a particular interpretation of that, but is pretty much all down to me.

Besides... I'm already way over the word limit and I've had to put a lot of stuff in notes.

And in the case of the footnote that just says "I agree with Bob", Bob has featured rather prominently in the preceding 15 pages, so it won't look as weird to someone reading the whole thing.

	03-05-2005 02:41									#136
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But I agree it seems bizarre to have a footnote saying "I agree with so-and-so." If you cite someone else's work in a furtherance of your own argument, it's pretty much a given that you agree with their position on the matter.

	03-05-2005 02:43									#137
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I agree with Boris. Yet, if that is how it's done, than so be it.

	03-05-2005 02:47									#138
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quote: But I agree it seems bizarre to have a footnote saying "I agree with so-and-so." If you cite someone else's work in a furtherance of your own argument, it's pretty much a given that you agree with their position on the matter.

It's not weird in Ancient Philosophy. In fact I'm a pretty sparse footnoter compared to some people. Pick up Cherniss "Aristotle's Criticism of Plato and the Academy" for an extreme example.

There's just so much written, in so many languages, and over such a long period of time that you can't not do it. I think I reference Plutarch and some contemporary writer in the same reference at one point.

I really hate people who just put "Bob, p. 15." in a footnote to indicate agreement. I only reference like that if I am talking about Bob in the main body. If it is just a matter of acknowledging that someone else agrees with me, I do it the way I did in this example.

As I mentioned in the last post: that guy gets mentioned for most of the preceding 15 pages, since I am closest to him on this particular issue. If this was the first time he was being mentioned, there would be a couple of lines explaining his view and the relevant similarities and differences.

	03-05-2005 02:48									#139
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I guess that I'm worried if I just referenced with "Bob, p. 15." it would be hard to distinguish between cases where I wanted to agree with Bob, and cases where I was setting him up for a slam.