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Curumbor Elendil
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of Númenor
Nov 1999
time: 00:12
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This is re the "New Millennium Diplomacy Game" discussed via ICQ. Here are some of my ideas on settings...
1) Play on a Europe map. Most diplomacy games have been on the world map, a couple recent ones have used Europe, and it looks like fun. We can even use the civilizations from the real Diplomacy board game: Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Russia, & Turkey.
2) Use traditional diplomacy rules: declare war a turn before attacking (maybe make an exception for non-bribing espionage); spies & diplomats more expensive (I think also adding a rule of only 1 city bribe per turn might be good); no expiry of Oracle; expiry of Pyramids at Refrigeration; new Trade Vessel unit with no attack capability to eliminate unhappiness factor in Dem & Rep; reduce cost of caravans slightly; eliminate nukes.
3) Add enhancements for gameplay, some suggested by Markus recently in this forum: add alpine capability to catapults, cannons, and artillery (which are otherwise nearly useless till railroad); no goody huts; map revealed from start; each civ with two start cities fairly placed; reduce dramatically costs of nearly useless wonders like Lighthouse and Magellan (nearly useless only on the Europe map, that is!), reduce somewhat costs of much less useful wonders like UN, eliminate altogether totally useless wonders like Eiffel.
4) Add enhancements for historical realism: increase turns/tech rate (14/10 factor has turned out to be most realistic in my testing); triple or quadruple movement rates for ships & air units (it's absurd to think that a battleship takes 2 years to go from Norway to Britain, or a stealth bomber can't fly from France to Yugoslavia in a year); giving caravans & freight alpine ability (I think this is plausible only if we're using a "micro" map like Europe); cosmetic changes to wonders, civilization names, etc. to match the map we're playing on.
I've tried these settings on the Europe map (I can post the rules.txt for those who are interested). In eight games with the AIs only, half on King level, half on Emperor, Russia and Italy each won twice; France, Turkey, Germany, and Austria each won once; and Britain never won and was usually near last place. However, I played two games with myself as the British, on Emperor and Deity level, and not only won, but utterly destroyed the AIs. Apparently the AI, when given Britain, is very stupid about using ships to settle overseas (Norway, northern Europe, Spain). It really appears that the civilizations would be equally matched when played by humans.
I can also post images of the starting positions and so on, but first I wanted to see your suggestions about these settings on a conceptual level.
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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989
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Crustacian
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of Idaho PST
Jul 1999
time: 21:12
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 11-29-2000 01:39 PM</font>
3) Add enhancements for gameplay, some suggested by Markus recently in this forum: add alpine capability to catapults, cannons, and artillery (which are otherwise nearly useless till railroad); no goody huts; map revealed from start; each civ with two start cities fairly placed; reduce dramatically costs of nearly useless wonders like Lighthouse and Magellan (nearly useless only on the Europe map, that is!), reduce somewhat costs of much less useful wonders like UN, eliminate altogether totally useless wonders like Eiffel.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Crusty: With alpine capability these units would have a similar benifit as if they moved on a road. So without it, they would not be useless until RR with the use of a road. These units need to have other supporting units to make them usefull too. Why not leave them as is and build roads/forts, and send defensive units in ahead. Nothing like a good seige!
Otherwise wait til a more decisive weapon can be invented.
Or if you still need to make an adaption here, consider reducing the effectivness of pikemen instead.
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
4) Add enhancements for historical realism: increase turns/tech rate (14/10 factor has turned out to be most realistic in my testing); triple or quadruple movement rates for ships & air units (it's absurd to think that a battleship takes 2 years to go from Norway to Britain, or a stealth bomber can't fly from France to Yugoslavia in a year); giving caravans & freight alpine ability (I think this is plausible only if we're using a "micro" map like Europe); cosmetic changes to wonders, civilization names, etc. to match the map we're playing on.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Crusty: This as well as the other things mentioned seem like good ideas for a game like this.
One other idea would be to use "no tech on city capture" option.
Can someone program it into the game to wipe trade routes with a civ that you go to war with?
The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited November 29, 2000).]</font>
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Jedi518
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Im really interested in thesse type of games, any chance i can get in with you guys?
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Moker Guy
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The Matrix
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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it would be fun to play with the players metioned on a gigaworld, im in a eurodip right now and it is good but the flat map is kinda boring.
Moker
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Curumbor Elendil
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of Númenor
Nov 1999
time: 00:12
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Last night, Jediscum, Berzerker, and I tested out the game under the original settings described above. We got to about 600 BC. We discovered several things.
First, you are right, Crustacian. Having catapults running amok is not a good thing. I went ahead and changed this.
Second, all three of us were _very_ close together at the end, so I think that speaks well of the placement of the civilizations and general fairness of the map (assuming we're all equally talented!  ).
Third, there was a negotiations bug, which I fixed.
Fourth, revealing the map may not be a good idea. It allows you to see the positions of all other civilizations' cities. I wish it were possible to have just the terrain revealed. I will play with this.
Fifth, quadrupling ship movement rate, while more realistic, is a bit too much for the gameplay. It definitely removes any disadvantages the British suffer from starting on an island, but it may in fact advantage them too much. I still think ship movement should be at least doubled, and I doubt there's much disagreement on that.
Finally, the cosmetic changes I've made seem to be appreciated: changing Pyramids to Viaduct, Hanging Gardens to Stonehenge, Fundamentalism to Fascism, Fanatics to Stormtroopers, Sun Tzu's War Academy to Holy Crusades, King Richard's Crusade to King's Blacksmithy, etc., etc.
If anyone would like to playtest this some more, especially once I fix the map, that would be great.
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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989
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kent-jo
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Norway, Oslo
Jul 2000
time: 06:12
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I would like to play, if you want me in this game..
What days are you guys thinking to play this game?
Saturdays and EARLY sundays works fine with me..
I'm currently in a EuroDiplo with Moker Guy..
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Curumbor Elendil
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of Númenor
Nov 1999
time: 00:12
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Berzerker and I played again on the revised scenario, with a covered map and ship movements reduce to double their normal rate. Berz was the Turks, I was the French. (Also, Clay Pigeon, Bobbuttons, and Empress played, as the English, Russians, and Germans, respectively.) We got to 600 BC again. I didn't notice any problems with the French civ.
However, we did decide to make two alterations. I had barbarians on restless: that was a problem because they hit people unevenly, and because they caused Berz to lose connection (his computer can never handle barbs for some reason). So I'm taking them off. Also, I'm placing the Turks' two start cities closer together. I originally had them at Ankara and Jerusalem. The corruption caused some problems early on (though the Turks ended up doing very well).
The only other issue that came up is that the Germans (after Empress had left) killed the Austrians off, again. The two civilizations start very close, so when they're AI, they tend to go after each other early on. The human players will have to agree right at the start to expand in opposite directions.
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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989
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29-11-2000 23:39
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