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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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I've followed interesting debates for a long time, and I don't mean Apolyton per se. At least in here most make an effort to debate with the rules of proper debating. If you have to ask what they are, then you probably don't know how to debate.
I find it ever amusing how people use their beliefs so far, that they will debate trivial questions such as what is the colour blue really, I mean really..  That way, you never have to surrender, even if you are proven wrong. And somehow, then you make a comeback, because you have questioned the true nature of the colour blue, that somehow you a) didn't lose the debate b) ALL your arguments are STILL valid and c) it's just a matter of where you stand politically (right, left).
I'd like to call this nullification of common sense. I'm NOT talking about any wars, I'm NOT talking about any topic in particular, I'm talking about ALL topics and all areas of debate.
Here's my statement. If you belong to the right, you are idiot. If you belong to the left, you are idiot who thinks he is better than right and at least not as big of an idiot as they are. I got news for you, you are all idiots, big time.
now many of you start crying that some beliefs are essentially left or right, and those main values determines your political stance, even if you tend to disagree with few things 'your side' believes in. At the same time you prolly are twisting your pants and say that no no, you are not joining a side and letting them to say what you should think rather than you already had those thoughts, those core values, and them using the never failing logical paths, most of the decisions and opinions are in fact derived from those values. And I say you're a freaking idiot again.
Let's take some examples. US presidential elections, the biggest free circus in the world. People ready to bout it out. Uuh Kerry must be against the troops! Uuh Bush must be against healing sick children and all about bombing brown people! Look in the mirror and ask yourself did you have to loop that thought a week, or a month to actually believe in it? But hey, it's all in the name of making OUR side win, so it's cool, and most people don't believe those claims anyway, right?
"I read Guardian, because it tells me stories other media outlets won't, because they're too scared to tell them because they are true and reveals evil amongst us!", "Guardian NEVER reports anything true and it's all lies, because it's leftist story telling with an agenda, and if it has something I agree with, then it must be true because even they admit it!". Go on, line up and shoot yourself in the head please.
Well we need to join a party, if it resonates what I believe in, because well, the true power is in the group and alone I can't do anything so I just might as well join one and work my way in there to make the changes within, the ones I disagree with and voila, the party worth joining is finally here and I can shape the country/world like I see it and I only mean good so it's good for everyone. Right? Idiots...
President gets few percent win over his opponent, while almost everyone decides not to vote for various of reasons, and it's a ... sign of giving mandate? In France, it's about 50/50 if the constitution will be accepted in voting, and the state actually have to strongly promote and appeal to the yes side, because if it's a no, it falls on its ass. While in many other countries, there will be no voting, because we already know it would be a No. And thus, such constitution wouldn't be placed. Ok idiots, now I really want you to listen to me. This constitution CLEARLY is not a popular one. This constitution binds millions upon millions. Everyone should get to vote, and it shouldn't be accepted as Yes unless it's at least 2/3 ratio. Hey *******, this concerns me as well. Just because YOU think it's a GREAT idea doesn't mean I do, and since I last checked, we are equal. So where's my democracy, where's my choice and free will? Oh yeah but it's for the good of us all, right... what a big happy family it will be. It must be European mandate! Yaay! Listen, if it's unpopular, then it doesn't make it better to shape the opinions of the people by strong campangs 'vote yes and you'll get laid', but then we must shape what? YES! The constitution! If this gets placed without the mandate of the people, which seems to be the case soon, I will not respect such constitution, and it will be worth the paper I use to clean my butt.
But we all need our amplifiers and speakers, to get OUR view on the same table, the power of democracy, to debate it out and when we are all informed, make a decision based on that and let the majority decide. Sounds good? Well, if it was what was happening........ idiots.
There are not too much folks who see through this BS. They just wrap themselves around their beliefs and values and are ready to accept that Hitler was actually the Messiah to support their views, IF that's what it takes to prove your own point.
Please everyone, use your OWN common sense. If you don't have one, don't borrow one. Just because someone has a higher IQ, doesn't mean they're right. Most murderers don't think they are bad people, they just made bad choices in their lives and they can't believe why people don't trust them anymore. And if someone has a succesful business, **** they must be great at politics. And if someone has owned someone in a debate before, the loser is never right again, and the winner is always right.
Say what you want, believe what you want, but there is no such thing as left and right. There are no such things as values and beliefs that the other one could own. And if someone claims they have, and that means the other one doesn't have it is feeding you crap and is definitely NOT your friend or to be trusted. Make your own decisions. Open your eyes, and use your brains. And what is good for you isn't necessarily good for the rest of us, and if we don't want to come along with the great plans, then leave us out of it and let us be 'stupid'. Decide your own stance and position on every single issue by yourself, because if you let anyone to influence it, imaginary things you feel you need to have some loyality to, like political parties, you're nothing but a whore.
Jag har talat.
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Bill3000
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of Soloralism
Jul 1999
time: 00:18
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I completely, and utterly, agree. Partisanism is just plain disgusting on the entire internet. Few people actually want to care about te other person's point of view - they just want to prove that they are right, and research and read material that only supports their own point of view. The net result is a huge amount of b*tching and well, pretty much the destruction of the concept of a "debate". I'm glad that someone other than me has realized this - People simply arn't thinking for themselves, but instead are blinding attaching to one side or another. Believe it or not, the dogma on both sides really disgusts me (Although I admit, it's worse on the conservative side, but consider the fact that I'm more liberal on some issues, but that's not the point.)
Political ignorance is the bane of society - both America's, and Europe's. It has come to the point where truth does not even matter anymore - if you say something loud enough, people will regard it to be true.
And I'm talking about both sides! Democrats and Republicans, Socialists and Capitalists, Americans and Europeans, et cetera!
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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Bill3000, yes I do agree with you. Glad to see someone else seeing the same thing. Because it's right in front of us, and even with few admitters, they still go back to their old ways, never learning and doing the same thing (pretty much the definition of a crazy/stupid person), or thinks OK but the other ones are just as bad/worse. Which is exactly the shooting oneself in the foot.
And you are right, truth doesn't matter, it's a virtue, but sometimes you have to work around it to gain the bigger goal. What could be bigger goal than truth? Truth is something we can't work around because wel.. it's the truth. IF we would have one value to follow in politics, it would be the truth. Who cares about what someone thinks gay people are all about, or if they visited Scandinavia in the last 4 years?
And I'm talking about all sides as well. Everyone is guilty, equally, the same amount.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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Ted, 
Agathon, really? Is it a book, can it be found on the internet? I'd be interested. BEcause it prolyl supports my views so I could do mental masturbation and feel elitist in my ivory tower of truth! 
There are few quotes I'd like everyone to think and process. They are more than just words, they are quite famous, but I bet most of us haven't ever considered the brilliance of the quotations of this caliber, but they are well thought out by rather famous thinkers, thus it doesn't matter when they said it, some of them are old. I won't say who said which, because it doesn't matter.
These answer what is truth, different approaches:
"To say of what is, that it is, or of what is not, that it is not, is true."
"Truth exists - only lies are invented."
"What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and; anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding."
What is belief?
Belief is assent to a proposition. Belief is considered propositional in that it is an assertion, claim or expectation about reality that is presumed to be either true or false. Now, remember that truth != belief. To presume something is not the truth, ever, be default. However, it doesn't mean automatically that is not the truth. Belief can reflect the truth, it can even be the truth sometimes, but truth != belief.
Now you might think, that since what is truth, well, there are some things we know to be true, but in everyday life, most things are not valued on their relation to the truth, because well, that would take time and we might not have the answer. So is that a good argument and does it make it OK to give up without trying?
It's nothing but and I quote:
"Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and argument. Typically, self-deception is used to maintain false beliefs or delusions that one has an emotional attachment to. Self-deception can also include the defensive process of controlling and interrupting a discussion in order to try to prevent the opposing evidence and argument from even being presented."
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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Sure, no doubt, but my main point is not denouncing one side and their lies, sorry I meant to say non-facts/beliefs. It was to argue, that the whole structure of where the power lies and how it's handled has lost its original idea, the very reason it was created in most 'free societies'. What's the point of upholding such structure? And why on earth would someone actually go and jump in to support it, no matter what side? Assuming there is God, do you think God would be right or left wing? OH you can't answer that question with certainty, can you? Becase God would be omnipotent, but does it mean we are allowed to be stupid, when we realize we are being stupid?
Let's quote some more on this one;
"The point of no return or the Rubicon is the point at which someone, or some group of people, must continue on their current course of action. Either they physically cannot turn back, or doing so would be prohibitively expensive or dangerous."
So we can always rely on this one to be true, to justify our stupidity? And for sensible people, NO I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT IRAQ. What is it with you, do you realize, that when you thought of that right away, when I'm quoting a definition, that you are pretty much overloaded in your consciousness. Get a rest for a while, you need it.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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LoA  that's right! Better free than a whore.
Just because you would agree with an opinion that someone says who is known to belong to the 'left' or 'right' doesn't make you one. In fact, it doesn't make them one either.
I'm saying, we don't need no stinking parties. IF it was up to me, I'd demolish ALL parties. I don't know a solution to make another structure though, but say I'd try one where we would randomly draft certain amount of people from certain region, and they would not get paid big money, it would be their responsibility. Just like when you have to go to Jury... the same deal. Keep the politics as close to reality as possible, without hindering structures or agendas, or lobbyists.
What I want is less power in the political leadership, less governing, more freedom. "Well guuhh that's a right wing view!1". No it's not. It's MY view. Just because some right wingers would share the same view means crap.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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Ok I agree with you, there is no center. But I also say there is no left and right either. If you agree, then I don't see why you are debating this, if you disagree, please explain me, convincingly, why there is left and right, what it means and how it reflects the reality. And please do remember, that it's not supposed to be subjective matter, or it's really not a fact, because it is imposed on all of us.
Now, if you say what does it matter even, well.. why not call it the toasters and we could make decisions on who throws jelly the furthest. It would have the same validity to hold the power of leading nations and people.
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:18
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quote:
quote:
political conservatism is significantly associated with (1) mental rigidity and closed-mindedness; (2) lowered self-esteem; (3) fear, anger, and aggression; (4) pessimism, disgust, and contempt; (5) loss prevention; (6) fear of death; (7) threat arising from social and economic deprivation; and (8) threat to the stability of the social system." |
If you want to claim that, Agathon, you should also note that psychologist have also found that non-severe depression, all of which those "Syptoms" would be associated with, is also correlated strongly with being more in touch with reality. Pessimists and mildly depressed people tend to be in touch with reality much more so then optimists. So if you wanted to claim then the conservatives are the only ones with a realalistic view of the world, well, you'd probably be correct.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:18
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Kid, And you just based it on what? If you want to debate, don't come throwing beliefs on a debate that is denouncing beliefs as a way to lead something.
Less governing means freedom in many ways. For example, if you think that the government should tell you what the values are, then I suggest that is the opposite of freedom, the one where you can choose. So you are still allowed to make up your own mind, sure, but is it essential for the gov to tell you waht values are? Exactly what is the point in that, what is the value of it? I know it's value when you can use it as a tool, but I thought that was what we wanted to get rid of, aka less governing, less power, so we could decide, and just because many people can still decide, most are lambs who can't tell their left nut from the right nipple.
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Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Kid, And you just based it on what? If you want to debate, don't come throwing beliefs on a debate that is denouncing beliefs as a way to lead something.
Less governing means freedom in many ways. For example, if you think that the government should tell you what the values are, then I suggest that is the opposite of freedom, the one where you can choose. So you are still allowed to make up your own mind, sure, but is it essential for the gov to tell you waht values are? Exactly what is the point in that, what is the value of it? I know it's value when you can use it as a tool, but I thought that was what we wanted to get rid of, aka less governing, less power, so we could decide, and just because many people can still decide, most are lambs who can't tell their left nut from the right nipple. |
Control is a function of society. Government is just a part of that. What is "more" government anyway? More taxes? So what if those taxes go to eliminate the control that society has over you?
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02-05-2005 03:06
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