06-05-2005 05:40									#1
	An interesting site on the role of France in the Ivory Coast... Increase the size of your Attachments

"French forces had killed Ivorian civilians and destroyed a sovereign state’s air force to reassure 15,000 compatriots and to avenge the deaths of nine soldiers."

http://mondediplo.com/2005/04/10diop

	06-05-2005 05:41									#2
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"French governments, of left and right, have always enjoyed a free hand in their former colonial empire. They have carried out political assassinations, pillaged resources and supported bloody dictatorships. So far, it has all happened in the dark. The violence of November 2004 took place in daylight."

	06-05-2005 06:16									#3
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1500 for 9 deaths in Ivory Coast: =166
100,000 for 2900 deaths in Iraq: = 34.48

American pacifism is mathematically superior

	06-05-2005 06:38									#4
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u fail in teh following of teh news

FFL has been there now for something like three years. IIRC, you (USA) approved their peacekeeping mission in UNSC vote.

	06-05-2005 06:40									#5
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conservatives never let the facts get in the way because they are unamerican and traitors.

	06-05-2005 06:42									#6
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Hmm.

I agree with the main point of the article, though:

quote: THERE is a widespread belief, never clearly formulated, that the culture of violence is deeply rooted in Africa. The underlying assumption is racist: that power struggles in the continent are the expression of secular ethnic hatreds. Unsurprisingly, western media have persisted in imposing their clichés and preconceptions upon the conflict in Ivory Coast, presenting the head of state, Laurent Gbagbo, as a wily but brutal visionary, the rebels as good communicators and the shouting masses as young patriots. Two weeks after the rebellion broke out in September 2002, France’s then foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, explained to the Senate in Paris: “The present crisis is the result of traditional tensions. Ivory Coast, with its north-south split, is an ethnic and religious patchwork that has been in crisis since the death of Houphouët-Boigny” (1). What he meant was: “Here’s another fine mess Africa’s got itself into.”

There has indeed been a strong new wave of "White man's burden" sort of thinking as of lately within EU press & politics. I think it has something to do with the disastrous failures in Rwanda and Serbia.

The much appraised EU peacekeeping mission to Congo and it's hyping in my local newspaper was a typical example of the power of this sort of thinking. I think this "we're gonna help 'em by sending our own troops to upkeep peace -- surely that'll work" sort of thinking will come and bite us in the ass later on. This is also the reason I've been consistently against the much-demanded "humanitarian intervention" on Chad-Sudan border: I don't think that we can do anything which would do more help than harm in the long run.

	06-05-2005 06:46									#7
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I just made my original post since there have been like half a dozen "omg french surrendermonkeys r fighting a chocolate war in africa their hypocrits about iraq oil war" -threads made by US repugs which have just read a single FOX news article and don't know crap about the situation in western Africa.

So, if the point of this thread is to bash France yet again, you should invent a better excuse for such, this one has been used for many times and is starting to get a bit boring by now.

	06-05-2005 07:40									#8
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The thread is about apparent French colonialism, lets stay on topic...

Is nobody concerned for the people of the Ivory Coast?

	06-05-2005 07:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris 1500 for 9 deaths in Ivory Coast: =166 100,000 for 2900 deaths in Iraq: = 34.48 American pacifism is mathematically superior

How you figure? Obviously the racist Frenchie bastards feel a single french solider is worth 166 brown skinned folks why we Amerkuns only think one of our boys are worth 35 brown skinned folk.

	06-05-2005 08:17									#10
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So, this is to justify the Iraq War or what?

	06-05-2005 08:28									#11
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I dunno ask fake boris or Lancer.

	06-05-2005 08:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The thread is about apparent French colonialism, lets stay on topic... Is nobody concerned for the people of the Ivory Coast?

I am. When the lazy peasants are finally given free market, they'll go to the bank and get a $500m loan to compete with Nestlé.

	06-05-2005 08:35									#13
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"So, this is to justify the Iraq War or what?"

Actually this is about "the role of France in the Ivory Coast".

What do you think of what France is doing in the Ivory Coast?

"fake boris"

fake boris? wtf?

"I am. When the lazy peasants are finally given free market, they'll go to the bank and get a $500m loan to compete with Nestlé."

Please explain. You're worried about Ivory Coast competeing with Nestle?

	06-05-2005 08:36									#14
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alt+130 power dude: Nestlé

	06-05-2005 08:42									#15
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Wow. You made that line this morning in the shower?

	06-05-2005 09:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "So, this is to justify the Iraq War or what?" Actually this is about "the role of France in the Ivory Coast". What do you think of what France is doing in the Ivory Coast?

No better than what the US did in Iraq. Which makes it all the more laughable how you righties are quick to point out France's less-than-stellar imperialist record as if it somehow justified the US's record.

	06-05-2005 10:51									#17
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let those without sin cast the first stone. the conservatives in america are covered in sin. so are the democrats. since im a libertarian, im white as lace. im casting the first stone, thank you very much, and i have the moral high ground to say that everyone who criticizes what France is doing and supports the war in Iraq is a hypocrite should be punished as per Leviticus 20:15 (revised standard version)

	06-05-2005 11:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris 1500 for 9 deaths in Ivory Coast: =166 100,000 for 2900 deaths in Iraq: = 34.48 American pacifism is mathematically superior

that's nothing -- you should how many I kill in one sitting of Medievl Total War

	06-05-2005 11:06									#19
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I have this desire...fantasy even...I dream that some sunny day, or some bright moonlit night, someone, anyone...will want to discuss the thread subject. Call me optimistic, unrealistic...I admit it's a long shot.

Maybe I just need to aim high to make it through these dark times...

:sniff:

	06-05-2005 11:12									#20
	Re: An interesting site on the role of France in the Ivory Coast... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lancer "French forces had killed Ivorian civilians and destroyed a sovereign state’s air force to reassure 15,000 compatriots and to avenge the deaths of nine soldiers." http://mondediplo.com/2005/04/10diop

The Ivorian "governemnt" is run by a brutal military dictator who has lost control over much of the country. The French negotiated a cease fire between the government and the rebels which the government alost immdediately violated by massacring civilians in a raid on rebel held areas. The French peace keepers intervined and the government forces started shooting at the French soldiers so the French responded by bombing the **** out of most of the government buildings and military sites. Pretty reasonable really.

Now the government backers hate the French and claim they have sided with the rebels.

	06-05-2005 11:13									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia conservatives never let the facts get in the way because they are unamerican and traitors.

Amen brother man.

	06-05-2005 11:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I have this desire...fantasy even...I dream that some sunny day, or some bright moonlit night, someone, anyone...will want to discuss the thread subject. Call me optimistic, unrealistic...I admit it's a long shot. Maybe I just need to aim high to make it through these dark times... :sniff:

What was the original topic again?

	06-05-2005 11:15									#23
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The French intervention is pretty reasonable, and will likely have a much better cost/benefit ratio than will Iraq, which is why I support the one but not the other.

Same with the recent multinational intervention in Haiti...

	06-05-2005 11:15									#24
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"The Ivorian "governemnt" is run by a brutal military dictator who has lost control over much of the country. The French negotiated a cease fire between the government and the rebels which the government alost immdediately violated by massacring civilians in a raid on rebel held areas. The French peace keepers intervined and the government forces started shooting at the French soldiers so the French responded by bombing the **** out of most of the government buildings and military sites. Pretty reasonable really.

Now the government backers hate the French and claim they have sided with the rebels."

On topic that's an on topic post. I kept the faith, stayed with it through the rough times...and there it is. Oerdin, thank you.

	06-05-2005 11:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia let those without sin cast the first stone. the conservatives in america are covered in sin. so are the democrats. since im a libertarian, im white as lace. im casting the first stone, thank you very much, and i have the moral high ground to say that everyone who criticizes what France is doing and supports the war in Iraq is a hypocrite should be punished as per Leviticus 20:15 (revised standard version)

pure genius

	06-05-2005 11:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I have this desire...fantasy even...I dream that some sunny day, or some bright moonlit night, someone, anyone...will want to discuss the thread subject. Call me optimistic, unrealistic...I admit it's a long shot. Maybe I just need to aim high to make it through these dark times... :sniff:

I have this desire...fantasy even... I dream that some sunny day, righties like you will stop being hypocrites b*tching about everything France does when it's exactly the same kind of crap the US does (on a smaller scale of course) yet you support.

	06-05-2005 11:56									#27
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Master Zen, congrats! Your dream has come true. Please find where I *****ed about that, or anything. I just asked what people thought, that's all.

You guys went off on amazing tangents accusing me of all sorts of stuff but I didn't react at all. You see, I was just wondering what people thought about France and the Ivory Coast because I don't know much about it.

It really showed me how fixated you guys are on antagonistic politics though. You guys really need to get out more.

	06-05-2005 11:58									#28
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Leviticus 20:15 " If a man lies with a beast, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the beast."

poor horse . . . or was it sheep?

	06-05-2005 12:03									#29
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Man, New Zealand would lose half of it's population and most of its sheep.

	06-05-2005 12:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Master Zen, congrats! Your dream has come true. Please find where I *****ed about that, or anything. I just asked what people thought, that's all. You guys went off on amazing tangents accusing me of all sorts of stuff but I didn't react at all. You see, I was just wondering what people thought about France and the Ivory Coast because I don't know much about it. It really showed me how fixated you guys are on antagonistic politics though. You guys really need to get out more.

Oh cut the crap.

Let's see...

1) Righties need to justify the wars they support.

2) Righties hate France.

3) Righties see France does the same crap US does when it suits them

4) Righties b*tch about France expecting lefties to defend France

5) Righties claim how can lefties defend France yet condemn US? What hypocrites!


I can't count how many times this argumentative process has happened. However this time it ended like this:


6) Lefties do not defend France, righties get pre-empted by accusations of hypocrecy instead.


replace France with Clinton and US with Bush and its the exact same thing. Same horse being beat. Get it now?