08-05-2005 21:50									#1
	rex vs commerce calculator Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

rex vs commerce calculator: excel spreadsheet

developed in response to:

just beat monarch level: ariano_paluda

many thanks to the irascible polack for helping to refine my assumptions and pinpointing the limitations of this model

Attachment: rex vs commerce calculator.ver1.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

Last edited by lebensraum on 08-05-2005 at 22:35

	08-05-2005 22:45									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

modo, carrying over;

no, at this stage it won't optimise build queues, i'd like to have that happening, but i don't know when i'll get it done. sadly, every time i mention spreadsheets, my machine runs off screaming and cowers in some deep dark cave at the root of the misty mountains. so i have to wait for quiet times at work and such to make any improvements.

your eg. is actually more what i would have expected to see from the start. it also demonstrates nicely your original point - good management of workers simply wins games. i'll do some tests soon including corruption effects and post some graphs 'n tings.

	08-05-2005 23:24									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum your eg. is actually more what i would have expected to see from the start. it also demonstrates nicely your original point - good management of workers simply wins games.

I thought my last post made that clear: Granaries help you no matter your Worker-management skills. I used the Roads just as good in both tries, so it really made no difference.

Just to make you happy, I did another test, this time without using Workers at all (forted the first one). I modified the scenario, pre-Irrigating Plains around the starting spot. I used a different city pattern this time, allowing most early Settlers to build a city 3 turns after being built (a diamond with CxC — easier to track and recreate). Results at 1000 BC are similar, except for the trade income:

• With Granary as the first build in every city: 8 cities, 18 population, 21spt, 11 trade, 1 Settler, 1 Worker, 3 Warriors, 4 Spearmen.
  
• Without any granaries: 8 cities, 14 population, 17spt, 11 trade, 1 Settler, 1 worker, 9 Warriors, 9 Spearmen

The non-granary guys still get the bigger military, while the Granary guys still win the game if they are far/clever enough to survive a rush. Note that the trade is the same because no Roads were made. Normally it would be higher for the civ with more population (the Granary builders).

So, while Worker-management does a lot, it has little to do with the power of Granaries. They work well even with no skill whatsoever. Do I really need to say more?


The modified test scenario.

Attachment: rex test (irrigated).zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	09-05-2005 00:43									#4
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actually, what i meant was your eg. demonstrates the power of workers in a way that the spreadsheet does not

unless i'm very much mistaken though, you're still building settlers at a comparitively low pop, even in the granary civ. the increased military is by no means insignificant either. it still tells me that granaries have to be used carefully.

for that matter, what are your corruption stats at that stage? i'm thinking my strategy allows civ two a strong start, provided they move to getting a few granaries going in important cities at the right time.
(nb. not really my strat at this stage, it's still untested)

ps. got a damn busy week ahead, so informed discussion might have to wait a bit (not that i'm suggesting i actually have a life outside 'poly)

pps. what do you mean you've never heard of renee geyer?!!

Speak to me just one more time
Say that you love me one more ti-ime
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	09-05-2005 02:52									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum actually, what i meant was your eg. demonstrates the power of workers in a way that the spreadsheet does not

Ahh, I see. Sorry, my mistake.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum unless i'm very much mistaken though, you're still building settlers at a comparitively low pop, even in the granary civ. the increased military is by no means insignificant either. it still tells me that granaries have to be used carefully.

You are mistaken. If you build the first Settler directly after the Granary, you start off at size 3, then slowly move up to 4, then begin to cruise between 3-4-5. That is if you make a Spear between Settlers (or two Warriors, which is the basic scenario of both civs having exactly the same builds, except for the Granaries). You can change this by not including any units, and cruise between sizes 1-2-3 (gets a slight increase in city number), or you can build a Spear and a Warrior between Settlers, which would keep you around size 5 or even 6 (less cities, more units, obviously). The population (hence production and trade) will still be much higher than for the civ without Granaries.

The military can be gotten to by letting some cities grow before starting more Settlers. And the thing is, you will grow much faster than the guy without Granaries, so you can get the new units in quickly. Note the Granary civ had a low production due to the constant draining by Settlers. I will run another test, this time making sure to build Settlers only at size 5 with Granaries — this version should get a much better military.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum for that matter, what are your corruption stats at that stage? i'm thinking my strategy allows civ two a strong start, provided they move to getting a few granaries going in important cities at the right time.

Corruption depends a lot on the difficulty level, and map size, so why bother? Anyway, I think both civs would run into trouble at some point. Actually, the one with more cities ("yours") should start experiencing it sooner due to the higher OCN. Remember the cities that will grow big with Granaries start in the core, so the addition they make matters the most anyway.

As to time helping one of the civs, I already said that the Granary version gets more as the game progresses. It just has a better curve for most considerations, so the more time you give it, the more dead you become. I think it would be interesting to test the scenario of a heavy REX until 1000 BC, and then switching to more balanced play. See what another 20 or 40 turns can bring to both civs, and you will (hopefully, really for the last time ) understand the power of Granaries...

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum pps. what do you mean you've never heard of renee geyer?!!

Who?

	09-05-2005 07:05									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Who?

Wash your mouth out, you sinner!