12-05-2005 16:48									#61
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy That's what I said: "almost no one"

You defined CtP 1 and 2 as "civ", not me.

	12-05-2005 17:14									#62
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semantics.

ctp is a different game...same genre, however different implementation of the same concepts, so no, not civ

	12-05-2005 17:36									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora You defined CtP 1 and 2 as "civ", not me.

Yeah, I said that almost no one defines CtP 1 and 2 not as civ. You apparantly are "almost no one"

cIV we're waiting for is Sid Meier's Civilization.
There are more kinds of civilization though.

	12-05-2005 20:55									#64
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CtP1 and 2 are civ. They sure have some different concepts, but so does SMAC and every Sid Meier's Civ game. They're all the Great Civ.

	12-05-2005 20:56									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Myrddin I'm for change; BUT suspect that a lot of others will be saying 'its not civ anymore' when more information is released

Nonsense! As was said, if you can build cities, research, have diplo and be turn based, is CIV.

There are lots modifications and just some aditions:

Modifications:

- 3d Map.
- Unit stats and levels (instead of 3, rookie, vet and elite, there are like 40 'grades')
- Civics (which is an upgrade from static goverments)
- The usual update to the graphics and game technology to make it a 2005 game instead of a 2001 game.
- More resources.
- Few more civs to choose from.
- Citizens.
- Better AI?

Additions:

- Religion.
- Wondermovies!
_ ...

As you can see, CIV IV is just a good upgrade of CIV III

I'd like to see a Paradox Civilization...

BTW, any news about how many civs can play in a game? 16, all the 19? more?

I have no doubt that you will agree with me that the diplomacy screen should be redesigend to allow a higher number of civs instead of the 8 that were standard in CIV III. 16, 19, 31!!!

	13-05-2005 00:10									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 I have no doubt that you will agree with me that the diplomacy screen should be redesigend to allow a higher number of civs instead of the 8 that were standard in CIV III. 16, 19, 31!!!

If nothing else was done, please address this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as an addendum, being able to view to details of your civilization (science, tax, cities, relations with other civs, the info you know about them) while the diplomacy screen is active.

I just end up guessing on strategy at that point because I don't have the information I need to make an educated decision....it's just an educated guess.

	13-05-2005 00:40									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Nonsense! As was said, if you can build cities, research, have diplo and be turn based, is CIV.

Agreed - which makes CTP 1 & 2 "civ" - which some find debatable

The loss of spy, caravan and fundamentalism from Civ2 to Civ3 causeda lot of anguish on these boards; I think the jump from Civ3 to Civ4 will be bigger and more controversial.

It will not be the concepts that are introduced but how they are implemented - in particular much more of an RTS 'feel' - that will cause the outrage.

	18-05-2005 11:08									#68
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I like the new social engineering system to replace the traditional governemnts. I wonder how it would work; something like EU2, prehaps? I also like the new "health" concept that replaces the pollution Whack-The-Mole.

	18-05-2005 11:45									#69
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There's nothing wrong with a 'RTS' feel.
In fact I wonder, when will if have a RTS feel? As long as it's turn-based it can never have a RTS-feel.
It can have a strategy-game feel. And I don't care about that.

but no-one can claim this is only a strategy game.
With the expansion of the governament system, the trade sustem (since civ3), the diplomacy system no-one can claim this has a single-minded strategy-game feeling.

	18-05-2005 13:10									#70
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I hope CIV will never fully give in to the RTS world.

"Build tanks until you win" - Such games mostly stink.

	19-05-2005 16:03									#71
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this would be one consumer who would not buy a "RTS" Civ game

that market is cluttered enough as is

	19-05-2005 17:48									#72
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I am hyped like a nice little fanboy

Civ4 has several things that I wanted to see (a much better government system, the Mali civ, broker peace between two countries, 3d view). I can think of little potential sources of disappontment.

Besides, Civ4 didn't suffer from the same development problems as Civ3: Firaxis didn't lose half of its team at mid-development this time around. During the Civ3's patching phase, they have learned not to make promises they weren't sure about yet, and I think that's the reason why there has been so little info in the past two years of development.

As a result, I think that pretty much everything Firaxis announces will be true out of the box. This is especially important for modding tools and MP.

Besides, the current team has also learned how useful it is to have a good beta testing (beta testing was one of the main reasons why Conquests was such a good expansion), and that's why they'll try to have the game complete during summer: so that they can have several months for a good beta testing.

	19-05-2005 18:01									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am hyped like a nice little fanboy

From the beginning I told myself not to have too high hopes about this game and kept telling myself that this game is going to suck even more than Civ3, but the more news I hear about this the harder it is to hate this game so now I have high expectations about it




One more thing I have noticed that wasn't mentioned (AFAIK) is the small icon that points in the direction of the selected unit, so no more hunting around the screen to find the unit

	19-05-2005 18:10									#74
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My hopes are getting higher each day!

	19-05-2005 18:23									#75
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You can tell that the firaxis-guys are very excited about the game themselves as well. They tell us all the details. The enthousiasm jumps out of the interviews! Great stuff!

I'm sure they're browsing these boards and are very happy with our reactions.
During the civ3 development there were huge arguments about if the game would suck or not.

(remember the pessimistic and realistic apolyton clubs in those days)
I'm sure they love this way more!
But it puts more pressure on them to live up to the expections

Well, Soren, I know you're reading this, speak up, am I right or not

	19-05-2005 19:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Well, Soren, I know you're reading this, speak up, am I right or not

I think he's taxed full time at the E3 right now.

	19-05-2005 20:37									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio From the beginning I told myself not to have too high hopes about this game and kept telling myself that this game is going to suck even more than Civ3, but the more news I hear about this the harder it is to hate this game so now I have high expectations about it

There's always a danger of having too high of expectations for something, the danger being that it won't live up to your expectations. For instance, I have been disappointed by many movies that have been overhyped. For that reason, I will try to have low expectations for Civ 4.

But I have to say, it gets harder and harder to be skeptical with each new information update.

	21-05-2005 03:00									#78
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I was extremly disappointed with the first release of Civ III, but Firaxis redeemed themselves with excellent expansions. Features that should´ve been in the original game, true, but nevertheless. But since I assume much of the crap was due to Atari, this time I´m more optimistic. Only a fool would deliberately make the same mistake twice...

All in all I have a reasonably good feeling about this

	21-05-2005 04:20									#79
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I remember playing Civilization the first one when I was about 8 years old. Then, I followed with Colonization and man oh man ! Did I play that game like a madman. I also played frenetically to Civ 2 but it never reached the perfection of Colonization. In the last few times I played Civ 2, I remember the annoyance of the computer obsession to build cities in your territory, even if it meant the city was on a 1X1 desert tile. The CPU also had the bad habit of roaming on your territory just like if it was an internation zone of passage.

These things got even worse in Civ 3 ! Now with the culture, a CPU colonizing a 1X1 tile that is not within your border (but still you consider it to be in your territory because it's lonely tile witch isn't worth colonizing) he gets borders and reduces yours ! Not only that but the CPU trespassing your borders is even worst then ever - not mentionning the fact that in the later ages, with the CPU moving around, the turns tended to last 4 freaking hours each. I was very disapointed and I remember breaking the damn CD for my Art class in Cégep.

I'm cautiously waiting for these things to get resolved in Civ 4...

	21-05-2005 04:37									#80
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Wow, the CPU roamed your territory?? And I thought the AI was bad...

Sorry, I couldn´t resist

	21-05-2005 13:00									#81
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I have quite good expectations about CivIV. I bought CivIII only quite late and still don't play it much, sticking to Civ2, but the government options, Python scripting and the statement that there may be less units on the map make me optimistic. I wish there had been stacked combat and public works, but I still think CivIV looks poised to be better than CivIII. Not sure if better than Civ2. You can't have much fun playing OCC without caravans after all.

	21-05-2005 22:16									#82
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Im not playing CIV at all. I used to play a lot of CIIV even years later its release, but played CIIIV only few months.

So im expecting CIV a lot.

	22-05-2005 03:08									#83
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It looks like there dumbing down Civ4 - No more coruption of pollution issues so expand away. Spys are no longer allowed to mean nasty stuff because thats not PC.

There also getting rid of the generals, I kinda of liked the idea of generals in Civ 3

	22-05-2005 04:15									#84
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As far as pollution is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it too much, as now you have the health issues to deal with in large cities. All it means is not having to micromanage the workers to clean up the pollution, I think... I don't know about the corruption though... Is there some other concept that will replace it?

	22-05-2005 05:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by pmaura It looks like there dumbing down Civ4 - No more coruption of pollution issues so expand away. Spys are no longer allowed to mean nasty stuff because thats not PC. There also getting rid of the generals, I kinda of liked the idea of generals in Civ 3

They expanded the list of great people types (from military & scientific) to 5 various types (economic, military, science, culture, religious) - assuming that's what you meant by 'general', and not armies. If you meant armies they said there are "better stacked movement options", whatever that means.

I agree with everyone that pollution was rather annoying and pointless, but I never had a problem with corruption. It has never bothered me, but then again, I mostly played the DyP/RaR & Rhye's mods (now mostly Rhye's), not the default game. I also never make an attempt to take over the world - I suspect this is why most people hated corruption, because it severely limited the size of a useful empire.

quote: Originally posted by vovan As far as pollution is concerned, I wouldn't worry about it too much, as now you have the health issues to deal with in large cities. All it means is not having to micromanage the workers to clean up the pollution, I think... I don't know about the corruption though... Is there some other concept that will replace it?

I suspect health will also help to achieve the same thing corruption did - put the brakes on empire expansion, but just in a more unified and rather different way.

	22-05-2005 07:02									#86
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I'm hoping its a great game.

	22-05-2005 21:40									#87
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quote: Originally posted by alms66 I suspect health will also help to achieve the same thing corruption did - put the brakes on empire expansion, but just in a more unified and rather different way.

Mmm, corruption was nice coz as you well said, prevented the creation of enormous evil and huge empires. But how healh can replace it? I dont think it has relation each other.

Corruption or another way to limit the number of cities must exist. Corruption was an elegant way to do it, and has a lot of sense, if you get bigger, you will lose control of your people and must rely in other burocrats, and every man has its price...

	22-05-2005 22:00									#88
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DP

	22-05-2005 22:00									#89
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Well, I imagine the food supplies for example, which affect health in the cities (and the larger the city, the more effect it has, I imagine) will be in short supply, therefore as your empire grows large, you may not have enough food to sustain a large and happy population and hence the core cities will consume the most of your food supplies, and the outliers migh become unhappy and work less, etc.

	23-05-2005 03:10									#90
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i have absolutely no idea about what this game will actually be like to PLAY. it surely looks sweet on the 13 min movie, screenshots are intriguing, etc etc.
some good things are in, and if there ever was something i wanted in the civ, it's social engineering taken from smac. 3d looks nice, world map, etc etc. i never had problem with corruption either, dunno how they will solve it in the civ4, but let's be patient about it. one abstract concept replacing another does not necessarily mean 'dumbing down'. i never felt particularly smart about automating workers to clear pollution.
ultimately, civ4 will have a better start than civ 3 (which i liked and played more than civ2, especially in its c3c variant):
- civics replacing fixed govts sucessfully and balancing civic traits so as to induce 'flourishing of a thousand government types'. i do not want to see fukuyama's prophecy fulfilled in the game (it is plain boring)
- avoiding late eras bogging down
- allowing 2nd or 3rd place civs to catch up through SOME kind of balancing mechanism
- diplomacy improvement

i am holding my fingers crossed, but it seems to me that this will be the best civ so far.