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Rcoutme2
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Massachusetts
Sep 2004
time: 05:19
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Rob says:
hello
Ljube says:
hi
Rob says:
Let's see if we can crunch some numbers to determine our best gov't
Ljube says:
yes, that will be the best approach
Ljube says:
better than posting our preferences
Rob says:
yep
Rob says:
ok...go to hordeland control...p2 about 1/2 way down...I put a bunch of city data there
Rob says:
it's a few turns old but still useful
Ljube says:
ok, opened
Rob says:
my 6-5-2005 entry
Ljube says:
yes, two entries
Rob says:
ok...both are useful
Ljube says:
yes, the most recent audit of our empire
Rob says:
now...for expansion (building a settler group) we will actually produce more horsemen by expanding than by building only horsemen (that is in a 60 turn projection)
Ljube says:
yes, settler groups are good
Rob says:
Since most of the cities are only -1 horse if we produce a settler group (or -2) and then the new city begins producing a horse, it should be able to finish 1 or 2 in 40 turns...and that means...out to 60 (assuming the group is finished on turn 20) we get to break even
Ljube says:
I support settler groups for all cities except KBH because KBH can crank out horses
Rob says:
Yes...although actually...I want to build the SoZ there instead...it can produce it in 20 turns, and then the thing pays for itself in AC's in 25 turns...so it is a much, much better investment than the 7 horsemen
Ljube says:
hmm, we can easily be frustrated in that effort
Ljube says:
for instance AM have better production intheir capital
Rob says:
...unless you know of an up and coming battle that I have not been told about?
Ljube says:
yes, two battles in fact
Rob says:
Go ahead...
Rob says:
should we invite Paddy?
Ljube says:
one against the babs, our main force will form with AM mobile forces and then assault babs together
Ljube says:
yes, why not
Rob says:
umm...I thought that was >40 turns away...?
Paddy has been added to the conversation.
Rob says:
Paddy are you there?
Ljube says:
well, if we wait that long the babs might connect iron and make it more difficult for us
Ljube says:
they have many warriors to upgrade
Rob says:
how? The difference in the units is miniscule and the Babylonian Bowmen cost less...I would never build swords with Babylon.
Rob says:
ahh...ok
Rob says:
if they have warriors...then that is a situation...of course...warriors are expensive to upgrade (not to mention that they would need a barracks...when they are likely building temples)
Ljube says:
they already have some vets which means they do have barracks
Rob says:
...or they beat up on barbs?
Ljube says:
another problem is with iron and them being militaristic they might get feudalism as bonus tech
Rob says:
but 1 barracks (I agree) is easy enough to come by
Ljube says:
then we're screwed
Rob says:
They are not militaristic
Ljube says:
scientific
Ljube says:
sorry
Ljube says:
my mistake
Rob says:
They are religious and scientific
Ljube says:
yes, sci gets a bonus tech
Rob says:
right
Rob says:
Are they tied with us for advances?
Rob says:
...and do they have Lit?
Ljube says:
hahaha, I wouldn't trust beta to yell me what time it is
Ljube says:
they are untrustworthy
Rob says:
but we can see by seeing if we could trade it...hold on, I will check.
Ljube says:
they don't have lit, but it's not a requisite for new age
Ljube says:
they need code of laws and construction
Ljube says:
they have math and didn't want to give it to us
Ljube says:
in spite of their promise
Ljube says:
they owe us a tech still and I'm sure they won't return this debt
Rob says:
They don't have CoL or Lit...I was wondering about Lit because they would get 1/2 price (in shields) libraries which would kick their research up seriously
Ljube says:
true, perhaps they will try to acquire it
Ljube says:
by means of yet another lie
Rob says:
Possible. Meanwhile...we can try for SoZ in 19
Ljube says:
hehe, yes we could, but Home has better hield production
Ljube says:
and better growth
Rob says:
I suspect the others will want Pyramids...so we have a decent chance
Ljube says:
what if we lose the race? we must have an alternative wonder
Rob says:
Home has to build settlers, they owe one in 5 turns and 1 in 10...that is 30 shields (and 2 pop) in 5 and in 10
Ljube says:
memphis has better food surplus, they'll build all settlers there
Rob says:
Alternate wonders: Mausoleum or Library.
Ljube says:
also, memphis has pop rushed twice
Ljube says:
mausoleum and library are not worth teh shields. well, perhaps library is
Rob says:
Question is...does memphis have enough to give 6 spt and 2 population in 5 turns?
Ljube says:
I think yes, they have irrigated fish there
Rob says:
I am just saying we could...meanwhile the Mausoleum would allow a very, very large capital
Rob says:
irrigated fish only give +2 food
Ljube says:
aha, suer about that?
Ljube says:
ok, never irrigated fish before
Ljube says:
lol
Rob says:
fish give +2 food...-1 for the tile penalty, +1 for irrigation
Ljube says:
ah yes
Ljube says:
so, that would be 4 food on tat tile then?
Rob says:
yes...
Rob says:
Bloodview makes that and only uses one square that does not give a shield
Ljube says:
hehe, nice management
Ljube says:
ok, so you think we should build SoZ?
Rob says:
The capital is even better as the cow is on plains, so +1 food, and yeilding two shields
Rob says:
Yes...
Ljube says:
then we must have a really good reserve wonder and fast.
Rob says:
I think the others have not started...although we could build embassies to try to find out (assuming they would use the capital)
Ljube says:
yes, we should also have a second wonder city
Rob says:
If we get construction, the GW is a great wonder for holding captured cities
Rob says:
particularly on a pangea map!
Ljube says:
yes, but GW will expire quickly
Ljube says:
what is teh shields required for each wonder?
Rob says:
The wall does not expire until you get cannons!
Rob says:
200 for each, iirc
Ljube says:
yes, that will be quite soon, we'll beeline militray tradition
Rob says:
Why? We want our Keshiks...and then we shut off research...
Ljube says:
we can still build keshikc
Ljube says:
even with military tradition and we can upgrade them to more effective cavalry
Ljube says:
for small money
Rob says:
Not if 1 happens to win...then after we get MT, we must make cavalry (which I would do anyways...) but what I mean is that we have no use to go through all the techs needed for MT, we will likely conquer the map before we can really use it...
Rob says:
The money would be better spent on rushes
Ljube says:
we need gunpowder because of the proximity of bards and their riders
Ljube says:
riders are even more deadly than our keshiks
Rob says:
Actually...every unit built from Chivalry is more powerful than a keshik. The UU is the weak link in our civ.
Ljube says:
hehe, yes
Ljube says:
but it's cheaper to build that other chivalry units and can be upgraded
Rob says:
No...it is not cheaper.
Ljube says:
not cheaper?
Rob says:
well...it is 10 shields less than a knight...
Rob says:
that is not all that great...
Rob says:
particularly if you are talking about a city with 14 spt
Rob says:
I will, however, make upgrading of horsemen a little cheaper.
Rob says:
*It
Ljube says:
90 gold to upgrade to keshik
Ljube says:
from horse
Rob says:
Now...with our cities: Ta-Tu...size 3 and grows in 10 (at this pace, assuming we keep irrigating) it will be size 7 in 40 turns.
Ljube says:
not 120
Rob says:
Bokhara is size 4 but does not have the irrigation necessary, so its growth is slowed to 20 currently. That can be somewhat ameliorated...
Rob says:
Bloodview and FA both have irrigated floodplains, so they grow quickly.
Rob says:
One of the other reasons that SoZ is (potentially) useful is that our army (currently in pig country) will take nearly 20 turns to get to any useful spot.
Rob says:
so...assuming that we don't know where it is going (and thus we are bringing it home...or at least some of it) then...we can use the guys as mp's to make our people content. We can then grow cities and build settlers with a 20-shield reduction in time (since we could send some of the Pig-invasion army with the settlers)
Ljube says:
SoZ is supported
Ljube says:
perhaps we could add a few workers to KBH to speed up SoZ
Ljube says:
yes, that would be good
Rob says:
For KBH--we can mine another grass so that we grow it faster (while still maintaining the 10 spt)
Ljube says:
yes, that should be our priority
Ljube says:
also, workers in bokhara and Ta-Tu to add to KBH
Rob says:
Well...it should not because we don't have the workers...
Rob says:
And if we build workers...we should use them for improvements...KBH is currently at maximum due to unhappiness
Ljube says:
then two workers each
Rob says:
We need a settler on the dyes and the dyes hooked up
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
We have a sword that can reach bloodview in 7, bloodview can probably build a settler in roughly that time...
Ljube says:
Ithat's good
Ljube says:
bloodview settler to the dyes
Ljube says:
then FA settler to the dyes too, or north from KBH
Rob says:
FA settler will take 12 turns (assuming that we go for shields after the next growth...which also assumes that FA does not have to use the extra as a scientist due to unhappiness
Rob says:
)
Ljube says:
yes, so we have set FA and Bloodview
Ljube says:
both on settlers
Rob says:
That would be wise, imo
Ljube says:
but we need workers in Bokhara at least to improve KBH
Ljube says:
so it grows more quickly and builds more shields
Rob says:
I was just going to say that we should build a worker in Bokhara once the horse is finished, lol
Ljube says:
hehe, ok we agree on everything
Ljube says:
now the only thing is I still estimate we're some 100 truns away from monarchy
Rob says:
Ok...so we leave Ta-Tu building units (at least until its unhappiness goes kaput or it fails to have 10-turn expansion)
Ljube says:
yes, then we should think about worker or settler pack there
Ljube says:
what do you think is better?
Ljube says:
settler + spear or worker in Ta-Tu
Rob says:
worker...don't want to cut its production too much...and it just is the wrong place (as is Bokhara) for settlers.
Ljube says:
ok
Ljube says:
becaiuse of low food income
Rob says:
yep
Ljube says:
I get it
Rob says:
meanwhile...we should be getting pretty good food income from our dye city due to the wheat
Ljube says:
yes
Ljube says:
OK, now a place for our wonder city that will build Leo's Workshop.
Rob says:
It will also have two shielded grass: great for 2 shields when mined or 1 shield and 3 food (in monarchy) when irrigated (1 shield min. necessary for the GA from our UU)
Ljube says:
hehe, yes
Ljube says:
OK, what about that wonder city?
Ljube says:
It should be close to KBH, but I simply can't see a suitable candidate
Ljube says:
It must be on river or lake
Rob says:
where is the city (going towards Porkers) supposed to go?
Ljube says:
1-1-2 from bokhara
Ljube says:
it has many hills but it seems too far from capital will have big corruption
Ljube says:
perhaps bloodview could become the wonder city in time
Rob says:
the only place I can see that would work well is 8-9-9-9 from capital
Ljube says:
it seems nice
Rob says:
no...it sucks...because of distance
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
I was desperately hoping for a few GL's so we could try to get 8 cities and rush a FP
Ljube says:
that would have been grand
Ljube says:
well, the wonder city can be any city if we add workers to it
Ljube says:
even ta-Tu
Rob says:
Ok...let's look at the situation: we should be able to build (with porker help) 4 cities in the next 15 turns...
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
Why not use KBH?
Ljube says:
let's say 20 turns
Ljube says:
KBH is not good because you can't prebuild a wonder in the capital
Rob says:
You can if there are lots of wonders to be built...
Ljube says:
yes, but nobody guearantees that will be the case
Rob says:
...in case you missed it, there are currently no wonders built or listed as under construction
Ljube says:
the construction of wonders can be concealed by library construction
Ljube says:
they may be well on teh way
Rob says:
I bet they aren't
Ljube says:
I suggest we conceal our wonder construction for a few turns
Rob says:
We can not do that easily...
Ljube says:
can we not build library?
Rob says:
We can switch to library and conceal for 6 turns
Ljube says:
excellent
Rob says:
5 turns...since the save I am looking at is old
Ljube says:
still beter than nothing
Rob says:
yes...I agree
Rob says:
we can also misdirect by 'claiming' to build the Pyramids
Ljube says:
hehe, nobody will believe us
Ljube says:
we can start the great library
Ljube says:
claim we have no time for research
Rob says:
I would rather not...that is my #2 choice (unless the GW becomes available)
Ljube says:
aha, ok
Ljube says:
I mean it matters not which wonder we start, we can change it anyway so they won't be fooled
Rob says:
The Pyramids are actually believable since they would work for every city on the map, for the rest of the game.
Ljube says:
yes and our land is dry
Rob says:
yep
Ljube says:
it's a good investment
Rob says:
actually...pyramids would 'normally' be my #3 choice...I just don't think we will actually use them...
Ljube says:
hehe
Ljube says:
I like to capture them as I build only few granaries
Ljube says:
in my capital and in my wonder city
Rob says:
Next question: is it worth pop-rushing a granary in FA (rather than an immediate settler)?
Ljube says:
hmm, interesting
Ljube says:
how much would it cost to pop rush agranary? 3 citizens?
Rob says:
My thought is no: since it would take 3 turns instead of 5 to expand
Rob says:
No...we would pop rush in 4 turns and it would take only the population that just expanded.
Rob says:
The problem is the unhappiness
Ljube says:
hmm, let's not pop rush then at all
Rob says:
I take back the 3 v 5...since you do actually accumulate grain...so it would take 2 1/2 turns to expand.
Ljube says:
I use pop rushing in cities which are not productive at all
Rob says:
that city is only marginally productive until it is size 4. (which it is not yet)
Ljube says:
it has no forests
Rob says:
...of course...when it hits size 4, then it will use a hill, cutting its +4 fpt to +3, that would take 7 turns for growth...
Rob says:
it has hills
Ljube says:
we would need to mine hill
Rob says:
yes
Rob says:
I think we should build the granary.
Rob says:
In the next 40 turns, it will more than pay for itself in workers and settlers
Ljube says:
so many tasks for our workers, once again I implore we switch to feudalism
Rob says:
we would still have just as many tasks...but then we would be unable to rushbuild units in small cities
Ljube says:
with feud we can still rush build
Rob says:
I really had thought about going to Feudalism...and keep in mind that we are not prohibited from it until we commit to researching MOnarchy...I supported your idea that we wait on researching Monarchy.
Ljube says:
that's excellent
Ljube says:
so onto construction full speed
Rob says:
Feudalism pop-rushes, so small cities can't get any benefit from large ones.
Ljube says:
small cities are excellent
Ljube says:
pop rushing factories
Ljube says:
our core grows
Ljube says:
perhaps even 10 cities
Ljube says:
the rest small towns
Ljube says:
size 1-2
Ljube says:
sometimes 3
Ljube says:
they rush horse
Ljube says:
then build worker
Ljube says:
and back to the same routine again
Rob says:
You are thinking that this game will last that long...Demogames rarely last into the IA
Ljube says:
really?
Rob says:
yep...
Rob says:
Human players wipe each other out...sometimes before Military Tradition
Ljube says:
well, doesn't matter, we will have the best support for our military
Ljube says:
and we will wipe out
Rob says:
But...keep in mind that every city captured from us (even if we just captured it) would cost 17 ww pts.
Ljube says:
We will never lose a single city
Rob says:
We will lose captured cities
Ljube says:
we will raze them instead
Rob says:
then we lose the benefit of the extra army support...and every unit over the max is 3 gpt
Ljube says:
we build another small hamlet to offset that
Rob says:
how? we will have to build yet another unit (a settler) and find a place to plop it...
Rob says:
settlers cost as much as horsemen for upkeep
Ljube says:
yes, we plop it just next to the city whcih built it
Ljube says:
yes we plan ahead
Rob says:
well..it must be at least 2 away, lol
Ljube says:
yes, 2 away, teh so called ICS
Ljube says:
best town placement
Ljube says:
we can plop a city in between Bloodview and FA for instance
Rob says:
But...then we have a bunch of small cities close to the capital that don't produce...and the ones that we marked for production won't produce because of corruption.
Ljube says:
no, we spare our core cities and build smaller cities away from capital
Ljube says:
in that southern jungle
Rob says:
I would much rather go north with them...safer
Ljube says:
away from rivers so it can't grow beyond 6
Ljube says:
yes, ok, next to that coast
Ljube says:
both
Ljube says:
the cities next to coast might even become marginally productive
approx. 10 lines deleted due to private conversation
Ljube says:
anyway we have 20 turns to do the actual calculations as we will start construction at full speed next turn
Rob says:
construction will currently (for us) take 20 turns at current luxury level...
Ljube says:
then we will once again assess our situation (I don't shun monarchy) and decide after these 20 turns
Rob says:
I suspect that we can actually lower the lux level soon by simply rearranging our army
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
Also...we will get a little more cash just from our cities growing
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
Grim Death Swords will have to go to Bloodview if we plan to build a settler by switching that city.
Ljube says:
yes
Rob says:
Shadow striker or Bataar (warrior...elite) can go to FA
Ljube says:
bloodview will revolt next turn
Rob says:
no...it will revolt the turn after...but that won't happen because we will place the laborer on the gold and the happiness will even out...I already checked
Ljube says:
excellent
Ljube says:
because the stupid citizens of bloodview cannot forget the cruel oppression
Rob says:
Ok...first thing we need to know is where we are going to send our own settlers (as opposed to the A-M ones)
Ljube says:
one on dyes
Rob says:
that's a long trip, but yes
Ljube says:
directly on it or 3 from it?
Rob says:
that is a 4 turn move from Bloodview
Rob says:
oh...directly on the one south of the lake
Ljube says:
yes, well the other coastal city will then be a hamlet
Ljube says:
Rob says:
right
Ljube says:
ok rob, I have to go now, we'll talk about this some more, can we talk later today?
Rob says:
ok, cya
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10-05-2005 20:13
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