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VetLegion
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It must be the DDR sleepers being accidentally triggered by something. I wonder what..
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:20
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Isn't Germany already pretty much a socialist country anyway? |
I actually prefer capitalism with a social safety net. You retain most of the advantages of capitalism while offering everyone a certain minimum standard of living.
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VetLegion
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I really hope the revolution can wait until after the World Cup.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
Imagine representatives from IBM, GM and Coca Cola asking for a reception at the White House so that they can be assured that the president isn't leaning to communism. |
Imagine a democrats gets in power, and a chunk of his majority opposes further reducing taxes. The debate is dramatized into a "debate on capitalism", and the businessmen use it as an opportunity to get more pork than they'd have.
Germany is very communism-hostile. For most Germans, communism was the enemy. Capitalism was the key to freedom and success. Now, it was a German-style capitalism indeed, one that relied heavily on social-democratic policies, on social responsibility of the businesses toward the workers. However, most responsibility was let to private actors.
Like in all countries which get economically raped after the end of an economic model that worked, there are some significant people who advocate going back to the old model (in Germany's case, the the "Rhenan" capitalism, instead of the "Angloo saxon" one, based on shareholders). It may sound scary abroad, because of the word soziale Marktwirtschaft ("social market economy"), but it has nothing to do with capitalism.
I could see Germmany stopping the crazy privatisations though, if the government finally became sane. Germany has a record for terrible pricatization (Deutsche Telekom, the botched attempt at privatizing Deutsche Bahn, and the economic catastrophe that followed the privatization of most of East Germany's industry)
I'd say it's gotten pretty serious in Germany. Who knows what happens next. Nationalisation of key industries doesn't seem far. Capital flight? It all depends what Schroeder answers when they press him  [/QUOTE]
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VetLegion
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Interesting. What is this "Rhenan" capitalism?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:20
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"Rhenan" is the French word. Turn the word "Rhine" into an adjective and you have it.
Rhine capitalism was mostly about a few big companies that were the locomotives of German growth. They had a stable relationship with plenty of suppliers (German of course), and had stable customers across the world. The leadership of the companies was a compromise between the companies' bosses, the baks (for they were the real source of capital) and the workers who made half of the board of administrators (such a thing is called Mitbestimmung)
All partners were concious of distributing the growth to everybody, which means that there was a steady rise in the standard of living, without hurting the profits. The system worked, to the point that there were very few strikes.
Anglo-Saxon capitalism is completely different. The main difference is that the shareholder has the full power in an Anglo-Saxon company. When Germany switched to Anglo-saxon capitalism (to the local capitalist's desire, as most wanted to get rid of their bankers, and preferred the shareholders), the balance was offset. And it bit the Germans back in the ass, for example when one of their top companies was utterly buttraped by the English (Mannesmann).
The end of the Rhine capitalism is definitely not the only source of the German woes, but it significantly contributes to it, because there is increasingly less worker/employer cohesion, and because foreign capitalists (completely uninterested in Germany's econmomic well being) have much more of a upper hand.
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VetLegion
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Thanks Spiffor, I see the difference. When approximately did German banks start to lose ownership of companies to small shareholders? Which type of ownership is dominant now?
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
Thanks Spiffor, I see the difference. When approximately did German banks start to lose ownership of companies to small shareholders? Which type of ownership is dominant now? |
The Banks didn't really lose ownership, they didn't own the companies in the first place. However, when the companies wanted fresh capital, they didn't turn to the stock market, but to the banks. This is why the banks had some extent of power on the companies (not as owners, but as lenders).
The switch to Anglo-Saxon capitalism (which is also called "corporate governance", i.e when the actual power is given to the shareholder) happened in the 1990 I think. The stock market is a very efficient way to get fresh capital, which is why it seduced many companies. Note that it's not the laws that have changed, but the corporate practices (some comapnies haven't switched to corporate governance, like Stuttgart's Porsche).
The German capital doesn't have a strong base of small shareholders like the US'. The most important investors are Institutional Investors, i.e. big companies with loads of money.
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kronic
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Germany
Mar 2002
time: 06:20
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Germany won't go communist. It's just rhetorics. Müntefering, the leader of the Social Democrats (Schröder's party) criticized the Deutsche Bank which wants to cut some 6,000 jobs despite having made 17 % more net profits in the first quarter of 2005 than one year ago (now 1,1 billion €). He called the managers antisocial and investors are now grashoppers (Heuschrecken). 
But the actual policies are quite the opposite (as Spiffor pointed out). The current government made several tax cuts for companies and consumers in the past years that sum up to 47,8 billion €/year! They also plan to cut the corporate taxes even more. They have started to make some labour reforms. Just to put that in the right perspective: the tax cuts proposed by the Christian Democrats and Liberals back in 1996 (that were blocked by the Social Democrats) only amounted to some 15 billion €.
The Christian Democrats and Liberals will probably win in 2006 because the job market didn't get better despite welfare cuts.
However, to believe that they will actually make anything better is quite unrealistic. After all, we should look on what they did before 1998. They managed to let the none-wage labour costs go through the roof - from 34 to 42 % in 8 years (current level is ~40,5-41 %). They chose the worst of all possibilities to pay for the reunification costs. We don't suffer from too high taxes but too high social security contributions. And the Christian Democrats and the Liberals are responsible for that.
Now, of course these both parties claim their will to make deep reforms. However, one should analyse the German party system. The Christian Democrats are not a typical Conservative party like the Republicans or the Tories. In fact, the Rhine capitalism and the German welfare state are basically their baby. The Christian Democrats always promoted a strong welfare state and it would probably be their end as a big party if they abandonded their pro welfare stance. Anglosaxon policies can be found in the programs of the Liberals. However, they have to try hard to get 8 % of the votes and without support of actual Christian Democrat voters they'd have problems to get 5 % (5 % are necessary to get into the Bundestag). Given that, the Christian Democrats can't risk to really go for radical reforms.
And also, they could just make them as long as they had a majority in the Bundesrat. They'd quickly lose that majority if they pushed for these deep reforms and would then have to deal with the Social Democrats (again) who then would probably far more hostile to more reforms than they're now. Also they wouldn't have the support of the labour unions.
Last edited by kronic on 12-05-2005 at 05:20
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12-05-2005 02:31
to pondering does capitalism make sense and 
to Germans on this board for not informing us of what is going on. If Germany is about to go commie, I think it deserves some attention.
"
I also can't wait for the utter destruction of the German society. It really only deserves to die 
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