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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:20
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Man am I p!ssed off  .
I have a problem with the way the game is set up and I just wasted 45 minutes or more explaining my problem in a nice, reasoned posting, . . . , and the EFFEN forum ate my reply .
Well, I am the Chairman, and SEETHING is my thing.
I don't want to be a whining PIA, . . . but . . .
Here is my problem; you may recall my reservations about the size of the map in the setup thead:
quote:
The use of a Huge map was proposed by NetWarrior; I would prefer the large. A huge map is OK, but if we go that way, I might like to be a different faction unless I were assured we would all get Googlie-style starting positions (i.e. 2 or more ColonyPods at the beginning, a close-by monolith or two, 'decent' terrain with at least some rivers and rainy tiles and without unreasonable amounts of flungus, and a generous number of resource bonuses - that's not really asking for a whole lot more than a random map might give you, it is just insurance against a dreadful start on a map where contact opportunities for trade, tech-stealing or conquest are impeded by the distances) and that I was guaranteed to be offered CentauriEcology on the first tech choice (that can easily be verified/arranged by tweaking the turn order using the spreadsheet and/or a quick pretest). |
The problem I have is that I was NOT offered CentEcol on the first tech choice.
I have been down this road several times recently, and it is a major problem for the Hive.
My tech cost is 16 and it will take me 4 or 5 more turns to finish my first tech. Then my tech cost will presumably increase to something in the 20's or 30's (I think it was 33 in the last game I had like this) while I am just starting to researchi CentEcol. Unfortunately, as my HQ is the only base tile producing energy intrinsically, by the time I am in that round of research, my energy production (and hence my labs production) will already be capped, even as the tech cost is going up (just to help my seething along, binT considerately put my monoliths in my short length of river, effectively losing the river's extra energy in those tiles until I manage to get EnvironmentalEcon  ).
Anyway, it won't be until sometime in the twentyone hundred and teens that I will get CentEcol, and then another 8 years, if I'm lucky, to build formers and do the first terraforming. Meanwhile, you guys will all be sailing along  .
Well, not actually all of you - it looks to me, from running the spreadsheet, like the Angels/NetWarrior are also going to be in the same boat as I am, at least in so far as not being offered CentEcol in the first tech choice. I don't know for sure how NetWarrior feels about that, but I would imagine he would not be pleased either  .
As I said in my quote, this thing of not being offered CentEcol is immediately obvious at the beginning of playtesting and can usually be avoided by messing with the turn order - the spreadsheet indicates at least one easy fix. While I am sure that binT put a lot of effort into creating this game and testing it out, apparently he overlooked/forgot my stipulation and seemingly does not consider the lack of CentEcol at the beginning to be noteworthy enough to notice, let alone do anything about.
It may not be noteworthy to the University, who can easily handle the extra turn or two it takes to research another tech, but it is a major handicap for the Hive - which is why I mentioned it in the other thread. There are enough builder advantages to the big map and the large number of ColonyPods, I don't need to deal with a major disadvantage on top of that.
I don't have any particular problems with what I've been able to see of the map (36 tiles) - while it has that annoying thing with the monoliths in the river, aside from a generous amount of rainy terrain it doesn't have any strikingly good features either. Anyway it does not seem objectionable, and assuming that others' tracts are also absent the resource bonuses, I don't have anything major against it. I am trusting that it will get more interesting and diverse as I see more and that the landmarks are equitably distributed.
It is a shame, after waiting what seemed to be a while for the game to be set up, but OTOH, after all that time, and considering that we will be playing this game for a year or more, I think we need to start it off correctly.
I'm calling for a re-tweaking of the game and a restart  .
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:20
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Well, what can I say, that's my mistake of course. There has been quite a lot of issues during the setup of this game and I missed one.
Apologies for the incovienence.
The turn order will be redone shortly.
Well,
Below are my explanations for other things JDM is adressing.
quote:
and a generous number of resource bonuses |
This was of course part of the initial discussion, but I somehow forgot to raise my voice here.
You see a monolith is 2-2-2 and a rainy rolling squares (which you all have plenty) is 2-1-0.
I consider these outputs balanced, especially for the monolith.
And I think it's pretty obvious they really are.
If someone objects that, I'd really want to hear the arguments.
Meanwhile a bonus square is the best example for disbalance.
Not only it offers an increased output in a sole resource, but it also is quite dependand from the tech level of yours how much can you get out of it.
I hope I don't have to tell anyone here what a 7-0-0 square can do to a popboom-able faction.
And I hope I don't have to tell anyone what a 0-7-0 square gives to Hive with it's good industry rating.
Also I'd think twice before giving Uni a solar bonus square, not just to see it's research shooting up to 2-3 turns per tech at early game.
In general I'd put bonuses only if all players agree to it, because it's very hard to balance start positions when you have to add bonuses to them.
You just need one more bonus popping from a pod and the faction has a base producing 20 minerals at 2115.
Also I do believe that 2-1-0 squares actually benefit high industry factions the most as they sometimes have problems producing CPs early due to too low growth.
Also a 2-2-2 square will always benefit most the faction which has less economy, because it's not hard to have 2 energy per square while running FM.
quote:
seemingly does not consider the lack of CentEcol at the beginning to be noteworthy enough to notice, let alone do anything about. |
Yes, I missed this issue, but I your assumption I don't consider that tech valuable is wrong.
I also think that other issues in this game have been adressed in a pretty high level.
Including start positions.
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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:20
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binT,
I don't have any real problems with the start postiion, especially if they are comparable. As for the bonus tiles, they tend to be fairly common in random maps, so I probably expected to see some, whether or not you put them there on purpose; again, so long as all the positions are similar, I have no problem - there are bonus tiles somewhere, aren't there?
I'm sure that you must have spent considerable time and effort trying to balance things out, and I appreciate that effort and thank you for it. If some of my comments seemed harsh (particularly my ill-advised snide remarks about noticing &/or caring about the CentEcol thing), please accept my apologies - credit it to the combination of the Chairman's high blood pressure and Poly having eaten my original, less forceful, post.
I'd be perfectly content to restart the game with the same starting positions on the same map, so long as the starting tech thing is addressed.
Once again, thanks for your efforts and trouble.
J
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:20
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So there are 2 games now:
1.In which Uni get's CE->PN->IB... and all others get on fine.
2.In which Angels don't get CE, but Uni gets techchoices as Archaic wanted. Everyone else are fine.
The problem lies in slot numbers..
Angels must have number 1, 4, 7.
Uni must have number 1, 4, 7...
AIs are at numbers 5, 6, so I could probably move them, but it will take quite a time, so it would be delayed till next week.
I would advise Uni take the first variation and go.
Uni has a research speed of 3 turns per tech after settling 1 CP, thus you'd get to IE around 2107-2110 depending on how soon you get the CPs planted.
(everyone gets 4 CPs and ability to plant them on a river in the first 1-4 turns).
I will send the first variation to JohnDMuller in case you don't want to wait till next week.
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12-05-2005 11:56
.
)
), and no real bonus tiles either. But I've only played one turn so far. I don't know if Cent Eco will be available to me either but I sure hope it will be.
).
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