13-05-2005 00:35									#1
	An artists right to post his or her creation Support Apolyton

I would like to know what other designers/graphic makers out there think of the idea that Gareth and I were kicking around afew posts up in the ancient units thread, about stating that only the artist of a unit, asuming he or she is still alive and participating in the forum has the right to post a specific unit of his or her creation?

While nobody would like to see the graphics from the old forums fully reposted more than I, I'm sure everybody would want to have the exclusive rights to post they're own work. Do you agree with me Gareth, Typhoon, Curt, Steph, Case, Harry, Tom, Erika and so on?

	13-05-2005 00:56									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Well, here's the deal.

I think an artist should be able to showcase and represent his or her own work.

Problem is that if we make it a house rule that only the author can post a unit or what not we'll be handicapping the posting of units.

Who's to determine if an author is active?

Maybe we should make it a given that an author gets first post of the unit.

If the units were made for a specific scenario maybe they should remain unposted, as a public release was not the intent. But then, what happens to the units? Will they ever see the light of day? What if the scenario is never finished or posted once and never picked up again?

Frankly, I like it when someone thinks enough of my units to post them. Problem is that what I'm seeing is that an authors work is being posted continuously, with little modification, or for that matter completeness.

I like being able to go into the graphics threads and find all sorts of units. What I don't like seeing is "Here's Fairline's tank. I cut and pasted wings on it."

I think it all comes down to protecting the integrity of ones work.

Maybe a house guidline should be made like this:

1) Don't post graphics from an unreleased scenario.
2) Don't post graphics that were not to be made public as intended by the author.
3) Modified graphics must be posted with the original unmodified graphic.
4) All graphics must have a signature.

I do want to warn against making stringent rules. The forums will stagnate if we start *****ing and moaning about everything. We've got to learn to relax. Guidelines can be made, but make them only guidelines.

	13-05-2005 01:04									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I tend to agree with you Harry, a guideline of some sort has to be established but at the same time it would be wrong to make a rule to discourage posting artwork while at the same time preserving the integrity of these threads.

I think the guides you suggested are very reasonable. Besides, I'm that last one that wants to see this forum bogged down in too many rules like a certain other forum that drove Pablo away with just such behavior.

As much as I'm also against putting wings on a Fairline tank, I also want to make it clear that I think its important for rookie and newbie designers out there to post they're work so that it can be critiqued and commented on reasonably. Just as long as you say Harry.... it is they're own work.

Last edited by Sarsstock on 13-05-2005 at 01:21

	13-05-2005 07:10									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

When in doubt about an artist's or scenario's status, it'd be polite to ask via PM before posting.

	13-05-2005 08:35									#5
	LOL! Increase Your PM Length

"Here's fairline's tank. I cut and pasted wings on it."

	13-05-2005 11:03									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I posted this on one of the graphics threads.

quote: Erika (and others), when you make substantial changes to a unit, such as those to the one in the bottom left hand corner, it's really not necessary to retain the original author's sig on the unit. In fact, it's better to remove it altogether, since the substantially changed unit is no longer the responsibility of the original author. Somehow the practice of multiple sigs on a single unit has grown up, based on an exagerated concern about crediting original work. In fact, speaking for myself, if more than just a minor change is made to one of my units or other graphics, I no longer feel ownership of it. This is not to say that I disapprove of the modified art, rather I just no longer consider it to be mine. And I certainly don't want to discourage modification. On the contrary, I encourage it. Consider it your work and add your sig with pride.

In general, we have always based ourselves on the principles of Public Domain. That is, whatever is posted, or used in a scenario that's been posted, is available to be used by anyone. Original graphics, when used, must contain the author's sig.

This has been complicated by the proliferation of modders, those that make changes, large or small, to original graphics. I have two complaints about this. The first is those who make minor changes to an original graphic and then add their sig to the graphic. The other is those who make major changes and retain the sig of the original artist. In my opinion, a graphic should not contain more than one sig.

As for posting collections of unit art, this is a long standing and very useful practice. Harlan Thompson collected and posted some very important collections of early graphics that were used extensively by scenario designers. The practice is entirely consistent with the principles of Public Domain.

	13-05-2005 14:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The tricky bit is to gauge exactly how much modding is made
to a particular unit to warrant the sig of the modder to be added...

This is why I keep my sig off units in many cases, I do not
consider my floppy tweaks to be worthy of adding my name to.
It would be a slight to the original creator to add five pixels
and then claim some kind of authorship.

Even when I add much more than five pixels, I still do not feel inclined
to add my sig, as the original creator deserves the credit - not me.

That is something a modder should think about.
This is not a race to see how many units we can
make, or to change a minutae and add a sig.
Proper recognition of the originator is a must.

Every post with units should clearly state who made
them and not imply ownership, if that is not the case.

And speaking as a modder myself?
I really am not interested in the concept of cheap kudos or
gaining pats on the back, such things are meaningless really.
What's more important is the game, and our community.

We are all CIV people, and that is all that counts!

Last edited by curtsibling on 13-05-2005 at 14:14

	13-05-2005 22:27									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i just like making things, and if the changes i make are notacible but in my opinion not major, i try to make my sig as small as possible so that the original authors sig dwarfs mine,

oh and i think i'll try putting wings on a fairline tank

	13-05-2005 23:08									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You have made plenty of very cool items. So the size of sig is not an issue.

The trick is choosing when to put a sig on or not.

	14-05-2005 06:04									#10
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle I do want to warn against making stringent rules. The forums will stagnate if we start *****ing and moaning about everything. We've got to learn to relax. Guidelines can be made, but make them only guidelines.

so basicly we'll remind an poster if he/she forgets a sig or breaks a rule, no b***ing at them,

oh, i tried drawing wings on a fairline tank but it turned out horrid so i deleted it,

	14-05-2005 08:25									#11
	Remove this text

I participate in a number of art forums covering various subjects. Some forbid non-artist posting; some encourage it. The ones that forbid it are artist-centric.

However, SLeague isn't artist-centric, at least not in the pixel art sense. We are centered around the creation, design, and development of scenarios. Historically, we have been well served by treating art as a commodity rather than as proprietary centerpiecies.

I don't think there's a need to change anything. Post anything you like as long as you don't take false credit. The system has served us well.

(And if you enjoy creating artwork most of all and want to maintain complete control over its usage, perhaps you should get a DeviantArt account and contribute to the PixelArt community there.)

	14-05-2005 13:53									#12
	Suffering from ads?

Just a thought:

'Control over your art' and 'DeviantArt' are two conflicting terms.

When you sign onto their site, you hand over the right for them
to use your art and make money, without you being consulted...

	14-05-2005 23:26									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, there was a big hoopla when they added interesting clauses to the agreement two months ago. I wouldn't be concerned until they are bought out or go public or something like that. $jark and the rest of the admins are good people and they keep the communications channels open -- it's much easier to get in touch with them than, say, Cmdr Taco at Slashdot.The agreement isn't as bad as it sounds anyways, and there is a good rationale for the clauses.

Submission Agreement FAQ 1.1
Submission Agreement Concerns