17-05-2005 21:35									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And besides that, consider the fact that American citizens are of many different races and ethnicities. How can you insist on the mislabel of my being racist -- what race group am I racist against, if I include all American citizens regardless of race? As I've said, I consider xenophobia to be a form of racism. And I don't recall many people getting up in arms when a company transfers to, oh, Western Europe. It's always how horrible it is when companies move to Mexico or India. I wonder what that is. I think being more concerned with the people in your country to the detriment of others makes you a touch xenophobic and nationalistic in your outlook. Do you simply object to the term racist? Would you rather I call you a xenophobe? Or a ultra-nationalist? All same sides of a coin to me.

How about if you just call me MrFun?

	17-05-2005 22:36									#212
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Having just returned from a weekend drive to Arizona and back, I can tell you that any story about a "stand down" order is absolute bullshit. We saw far more Border Patrol presence in southern AZ (at least 15 vehicles) than Arizona DPS or highway patrol (none).

They were patrolling, detaining vehicles, and otherwise at least as active, if not more so, as any other time I've been through there, and I've been there plenty of times.

	17-05-2005 22:47									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I didn't know you had a magic ****ing wand! quote: I suggest that third world countries wake up, and realize that improving the quality of life for workers is in their own best interest, as it will help improve their own country's economy. Increasing the quality of life for their workers requires that they let in businesses and allow them to pay the employees at the level they are being paid, which is MUCH higher than the average wage in that country. I love how this magic wand exists which allows countries to increase the quality of life for their workers by just a wave of the hand. By having a minimum wage and standards equal to the West, they kill their economies, totally and fully when companies leave en masse. ... South Korea sure screwed up their economy bad by starting out as a sweatshop country.

However, one point in the whole globalization argument that seems to be skated over by everyone is that there needs to be standards similar to the west in terms of market transparency, corruption, some separation of government from corporate interests, etc. If South Korea hadn't seen significant political and financial markets reform, they'd be a hell of a lot worse shape than they are now.

It doesn't do a country (as opposed to its ruling elite) any good if the economy is run for the benefit of a kleptocracy a la Suharto in Indonesia. It's not a whole lot better if you have a nepotistic-cronyistic oligarchy a la Mexico under the PRI.

	18-05-2005 03:54									#214
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It doesn't do a country (as opposed to its ruling elite) any good if the economy is run for the benefit of a kleptocracy a la Suharto in Indonesia. It's not a whole lot better if you have a nepotistic-cronyistic oligarchy a la Mexico under the PRI.

It doesn't isn't any good if the economy is run for the benefit of the MNCs either. The driving force of globalization is lower wages. That means less for workers, and someone else gets the pie.

	18-05-2005 03:59									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious It doesn't isn't any good if the economy is run for the benefit of the MNCs either. The driving force of globalization is lower wages. That means less for workers, and someone else gets the pie.

Lower wages also means lower costs, larger profits (which eventually get reinvested somewhere), etc. Lower costs means increased affordability, hence increased demand.

If you've got a realistic way to prop up wages without a completely false, bubble economy (oops, there went communism, ), then let's hear it.

	18-05-2005 04:10									#216
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Lower wages also means lower costs, larger profits (which eventually get reinvested somewhere), etc. Lower costs means increased affordability, hence increased demand.

What lower prices? Some cheap crap made in China or Mexico? Oh yeah saving 50 bucks on a TV and some cheap **** made in China is really worth the loss in jobs here and the weaker job market.

quote: If you've got a realistic way to prop up wages without a completely false, bubble economy (oops, there went communism, ), then let's hear it.

No. Bubbles are a thing with capitalism. You have the wrong system.

	18-05-2005 04:44									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What lower prices? Some cheap crap made in China or Mexico? Oh yeah saving 50 bucks on a TV and some cheap **** made in China is really worth the loss in jobs here and the weaker job market.

If you get the cheap **** made in China, that's your choice. There are plenty of high quality products made overseas, and many are higher quality than what was produced domestically.

It was great in the early 80's to go by the GM plant in Fremont, CA, and see all the German and Japanese cars in the parking lot. I figure the shop rats who made the cars there knew more about their quality than I did, and the parking lot was a ringing endorsement.

I don't know about the weaker job market thing - I've adapted and moved on from the energy fiasco and got a lot of work coming in. Maybe if some people have persistent trouble getting or keeping jobs, they're in the wrong place, have the wrong skills, or have performance problems.

quote: No. Bubbles are a thing with capitalism. You have the wrong system.

Bubbles, plural, because the marketplace adjusts, corrects and moves on forward. With communism, your probably right, it's more like an event horizon than the surface of a bubble, and the shock wave after the implosion goes on a lot longer than any bubble.

	18-05-2005 04:56									#218
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Kid, don't argue with MtG. Even when he's wrong, he still pwns you. The only one who can stand up to MtG is Molly Bloom, but fotunately, such a debate has not yet occured, lest the world come to an end.

	18-05-2005 05:11									#219
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid, don't argue with anybody. Even when they're wrong, they'll still pwn you.

	18-05-2005 06:02									#220
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid, don't argue with MtG. Even when he's wrong, he still pwns you. The only one who can stand up to MtG is Molly Bloom, but fotunately, such a debate has not yet occured, lest the world come to an end.

Well I can't afford German cars, only cheap Chinese crap from Wal-Mart. So I'm not really pwned.

	18-05-2005 06:04									#221
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Maybe if some people have persistent trouble getting or keeping jobs, they're in the wrong place, have the wrong skills, or have performance problems.

And what is that suppose to mean? I've got one more year to get my Accounting degree. It's one of the hottest degrees right now.

	18-05-2005 09:32									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Here's a nice "recap," that shows where the perspective is of most of these illegal immigration "groups." Notice he says, "American was hurt," like alot of the Hispanic people there weren't Americans??? Like a sign that says "Assimiliate or Vacate" isn't insightful. http://www.americanpatrol.com/ American Patrol What a dork

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