14-05-2005 02:48									#1
	Some interesting and probably new ideas to naval combat Suffering from ads?

Hey guys (and girls.. if there are any),

I toyed around with an idea today about naval combat. Basically the ships get remodeled to have 0 attack so that they cannot engage directly. The combat ships are also given transport capacity and the ability to transport air units only.
Now several new ship-cannon units are made (air) which have a bombard range and such and are immobile (rebase is deselected, load is selected).

So you drive your ship into a city and load it up with cannons. This can then bombard other ships... ofc Lethal Sea Bombardment has to be activated for the cannons.

And you can have different ship strenghts varying the defense and the number of cannons they can carry (as well as movement ofc).

You can upgrade your ships by putting better cannons on them (with greater range, bombard strength,...) or upgrade the type of ships as well if this is wanted.

Ofc, the problem in the epic game is when you get bombers you can load them onto a frigate for example... but I don't know.. maybe it works to give the ship-cannons the "foot unit" flag as well and select the frigate to transport foot units only. That way they cannot carry bombers,..

I once thought about doing this for all units (land as well)... but unfortunately this is hardly possible because with 0 attack you cannot conquer cities.

That way you don't have those win-or-die events in battle and the battles could last a bit longer.

I don't know if this is a new idea.. maybe somebody tried it already. I am thinking about doing that for some future version of my age of pirates mod.

What do you think about it?

	17-05-2005 15:29									#2
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Sounds like the game 1503 AD. There you build ships (small(4)/medium(6)/large(10) warships) with the numbers in parentheses being the maximum number of ship cannons on board, but that is a little bit besides the point.

I think the general idea is pretty good and historically accurate (talking about Age of Pirates, I presume the destroyer/cruiser/battleship etc remain unmodded / are taken out of the game?)).
However, if ship cannons can be used from land (to bombard passing ships for instance), their price in shields should be equivalent to, say, a catapult or trebuchet (because they are immobile they should not be as expensive as a "real" cannon). But then again, if the ship goes down so do all cannons on board so they should not be too expensive for anyone to even build them at all (and just sail a "dummy-fleet" of empty frigates to take the beating and protect the invasion force in the transports instead).

This is a point that crossed my mind when I read your post. There is a compromise to be found between cost and effectiveness and it may take a while before that is met.

All in all, I must say that I like the sound of your mod and I am looking forward to hearing more ideas.

	17-05-2005 22:14									#3
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While there is defensive bombard, I don't think that will counter Naval SoDs in this scenario. It seems to me this will just allow a big enough navy to crush smaller ones with even less damage, unless you keep the strengths/RoFs low.

It does sound interesting, though, and it's not like the SoD syndrome is anything different from the way things are now. Not sure if the AI would handle it; I'm doubtful it could.

	18-05-2005 01:23									#4
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quote: Sounds like the game 1503 AD. There you build ships (small(4)/medium(6)/large(10) warships) with the numbers in parentheses being the maximum number of ship cannons on board, but that is a little bit besides the point.

Yes I know this game and I played the predecesser (1604) quite some time.

quote: I think the general idea is pretty good and historically accurate (talking about Age of Pirates, I presume the destroyer/cruiser/battleship etc remain unmodded / are taken out of the game?)). However, if ship cannons can be used from land (to bombard passing ships for instance), their price in shields should be equivalent to, say, a catapult or trebuchet (because they are immobile they should not be as expensive as a "real" cannon). But then again, if the ship goes down so do all cannons on board so they should not be too expensive for anyone to even build them at all (and just sail a "dummy-fleet" of empty frigates to take the beating and protect the invasion force in the transports instead).

All valid points... I think ships would have to be rather expensive and cannons rather cheap. I don't think they can do much harm in a port, you just need to stay some tile away from them, although it will be tough for non-amphibious units.

quote: While there is defensive bombard, I don't think that will counter Naval SoDs in this scenario. It seems to me this will just allow a big enough navy to crush smaller ones with even less damage, unless you keep the strengths/RoFs low.

Hmm you are right, the idea has some problems, mainly that the attacker doesn't get hurt.
And if the attacks last more turns then you will not be able to stop transports

It could still be interesting however.. I keep considering it.

Thx for the input!

	18-05-2005 09:53									#5
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Your idea sounds interesting. It could work for a scenario or a mod that takes place in one era, but I can't see it working in an epic game.

Have you tried this idea yet? I think you'd get some weird graphical things going on when bombarding. I'm thinking flying cannons and such.

	18-05-2005 12:56									#6
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I have tried it only inasmuch as it is possible.. I have animations disabled so... but I think yeah... flying cannons
But probably it's easy to replace with a more appropriate animation.. maybe a flying cannon ball.

	18-05-2005 13:36									#7
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Interesting idea for PBEM without doubt. Doesn't sound like something the AI can handle, however.

	18-05-2005 17:49									#8
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I think you should have the chance of capturing a ship if you capture the city that the ship is in at the time. This would be more realistic than not capturing one.

	18-05-2005 18:32									#9
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I think you should have the chance of capturing a ship if you capture the city that the ship is in at the time. This would be more realistic than not capturing one.

	18-05-2005 20:28									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Interesting idea for PBEM without doubt. Doesn't sound like something the AI can handle, however.

Well if it can handle carriers... though actually I have never seen an AI carrier.

	18-05-2005 23:53									#11
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I've only seen AI carriers in the War in the Pacific scenario. Clearly, there is a problem with the AI programming when it won't use all the capabilities (military units) available to it.

	19-05-2005 00:39									#12
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Actually I have never seen the AI use carriers in any civ game... I am not sure about Civ2, but I think I never ever saw an AI carrier.

	19-05-2005 00:47									#13
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Hmmm...

I don't think I've ever seen an AI carrier either. At least not in Civ 3. I'm not sure about Civs 1 or 2.

	19-05-2005 00:48									#14
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There were carriers in Civ1?

* Shogun Gunner strains to remember that far back.

I don't believe there were carriers in Civ I, superstrong battleships that would be destroyed by a spearman holed up in a city (no bombardment back then), but no carriers.

	19-05-2005 01:06									#15
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Yup, there definitely were.

I think their stats were something like 1/8/5, with a carrying capacity of 8. I can't remember what they looked like though.

	19-05-2005 01:26									#16
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wow. I might have to locate those old Civ 1 diskettes and load up the game -- just for fun.

	19-05-2005 12:40									#17
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Yes Xorbon is right. I remember my brother once lost 3 bombers on a settler... he then attacked with his carrier (cause the settler was on the shore) and lost that as well... Probably the strongest settler in history... or probably the hill defense bonus
Civ1 was really a huge pile of garbage combat-wise.

Btw, I think Civ1 is available for free download already, no?

	19-05-2005 20:26									#18
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Those were the days...when "phalanx beats armor/artillery/bomber/battleship" was common.

	21-05-2005 09:45									#19
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I saw the AI use carriers in Civ3 Vanilla once. Or was it PTW? Anyway I don't think I have seen it in C3C...
Can't remember..it's rare anyways...

	21-05-2005 13:00									#20
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Carrier ops were fun in Civ. You could operate 16 planes from a single, 8 plane carrier.

	25-05-2005 02:50									#21
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?? I only remember being able to operate 8 planes per carrier in Civ1...was there some trick I don't know about?

But there's a lot that I don't remember from the early 90's...

	25-05-2005 08:14									#22
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I assume he meant that you'd have two groups of 8 bombers. You'd send one group out to bombard or do recon, and land the other group on the carrier. On the next turn, the roles get reversed. That's a pretty neat trick. I never thought of that before.

	25-05-2005 12:57									#23
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This must have worked with Civ2 as well then, no?

	25-05-2005 22:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon I assume he meant that you'd have two groups of 8 bombers. You'd send one group out to bombard or do recon, and land the other group on the carrier. On the next turn, the roles get reversed. That's a pretty neat trick. I never thought of that before.

Oh yeah! I almost forgot that the bombers in Civ1 stayed out a turn. I don't remember if I did that trick or not.

	26-05-2005 08:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa This must have worked with Civ2 as well then, no?

The carriers in Civ 2 didn't have any carrying limits if I remember correctly. (I had Civ 2 Gold, if that matters.) It's been a while, so it's possible I'm wrong.

But yeah, assuming I'm wrong, that should have worked in Civ 2 as well. Bombers in Civs 1 and 2 worked the same.