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Should we get stroppy with the Angels?
This poll is closed. |
| Yes - let's rap their knuckles and build the Ascetic Virtues from under their noses |
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3 |
50.00% |
| No - let's stay cosy and friendly towards them regardless of what they do |
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16.67% |
| Maybe there's a 3rd option - Use their provocation to bully them into letting us build the AV |
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33.33% |
| *shrug* - I'm eating my xenobanana and i've no time for this |
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0% |
| Total: |
6 voters |
100% |
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:34
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I voted "Yes - let's rap their knuckles and build the Ascetic Virtues from under their noses".
On one side, it would be a bit a pity that we managed to get involved in wars or diplomatic troubles with all three factions already.
But on the other side, I ask myself: why do we need to keep good relations with the Angels?
Besides some commerce income, I can see two reasons:
a) we need friendly relations to be able to engage in tech trades
b) we need friendly relations to prevent them attacking us
Regarding reason a) tech trades.
This reason isn't as important anymore if we manage to build the Planetary Datalinks. Without tech trading we probably won't have instant access to the latest technologies, but the PDL would certainly prevent us from falling back.
Besides I'm wondering whether we'll do many tech trades with the other factions in the future anyway. I get the impression we're somewhat being excluded from tech trading due to our powerful position. IIRC the last deal we signed with the Angels was in fact six months ago the deal involving EthCalc, IntInt, the CDF and AV. Meanwhile technologies have been flowing more freely between the three other factions. And no one has asked whether we'd be interesting in trading for Neural Grafting or Adaptive Doctrine (though of course they've only had it one year).
Regarding reason b) prevent military attacks.
The Angels and Spartans are on the opposite side of Planet. Large scale war is currently very hard to impossible between us. If they'd really want to do damage to us, they'd probably sit back and let the Weasels do their dirty work. So to keep our homelands safe we need peace with the Corporations and Gaia, which is what we're currently trying to achieve.
Besides I have the impression the Angels aren't that fond of us anyway. They've opportunistically kept peace with us as currently we're still useful to them, but there are signs that indicate they clearly favour the Gaians and Corporation. Eg they've signed a pact with the Gaians, and GeoModder's interventions in the peace conference were directed at the Corporation not paying us anything to get peace.
So I'm wondering whether we have that much to lose by deteriorating relations with the Angels.
Compare that to the benefits of the Ascetic Virtues. +2 hab complex limit and +1 police is perfect for a Spartan popboom strategy. It would make building tree farms asap in all Arcadian bases profitable after all.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:34
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Stroppy means warlike and unruly (OED says "bad tempered, and awkward to deal with"
- and I voted the first choice - rapped knuckles and steal the AV from under their noses
EDIT: Hmm - per the posts there should be 2 votes for "rap knuckles" (Maniac and me) and 1 for "stay cosy and friendly" (vishniac)
But I just see 1 and 1 in the results column
Edit of Edit: Hmm - now I can vote again - and did so, this time registering
G.
Last edited by Googlie on 14-05-2005 at 08:13
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wuy3
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Always go with diplomacy so in the future we can blame them for "forcing our hands". Bullying it is!
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:34
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Since we might have gotten all excited about... Zak spending 24 credits to switch to Knowledge SE  how about posting this 'soft blackmail' message instead in the Angel embassy in reply to Geo's latest post:
The Junta is curious as to why the Data Angels are unwilling to consider a deal regarding the Ascetic Virtues secret project. As you have no doubt deducted, the Federation will imminently acquire Planetary Economics. While our current agreement with you prohibits us from adopting Ascetic Virtues, there is no agreement saying you have the sole rights to the Ascetic Virtues, nor one prohibiting us from trading the technology PlanEcon to other factions.
Before we turned to the Gaians and even later to you to research Intellectual Integrity for us, before our relations with the Corporation deteriorated to war because of the unfortunate Hunter incident, we were in fact discussing a leapfrog with the Corporation to get to Intellectual Integrity and Planetary Economics, so that we could found the Citizen's Defence Force, and they the Ascetic Virtues with its ability to build larger bases pre-hab complex than just size four. If you insist on keeping our Ascetic Virtues agreement, the Junta is therefore confident that our refound friends of the Corporation would be more than happy to buy Planetary Economics from us and with it the ability to adopt Ascetic Virtues.
Frankly, as you can see there's like no chance at all you would be able to adopt the Ascetic Virtues yourselves. Why then do you insist on keeping the Ascetic Virtues? We assumed it would be a trivial matter to buy back the secret project rights, so to speak. Either you gain something, such as a global trade pact and Cyberethics without having to make extra costs, or either you gain nothing. Where lies the problem??
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:34
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A bit exaggerated, the abilities of the Corporation. But hey, maybe they will fall for it. Also, I think there is no need to say specifically to whom we would be willing to trade the tech (and the project). Maybe I am missing something, but why give the details? Why not let them wonder what we could be up to? Or do we want to direct their worries to Morgan to create a diversion?
Last edited by Modo44 on 15-05-2005 at 03:29
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:34
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How about this version (just a few minor changes to put it in context - my changes either striked or bold)
quote:
The Junta is curious perplexed as to why the Data Angels are unwilling to consider a deal regarding the Ascetic Virtues secret project. As you have no doubt deducted can no doubt deduce, the Federation will imminently acquire Planetary Economics. While our current agreement with you prohibits us from adopting Ascetic Virtues, there is no agreement between us giving you saying you have the sole rights to the Ascetic Virtues, nor one prohibiting us from trading the technology PlanEcon to other factions.
Before we turned to the Gaians and even later to you to research Intellectual Integrity for us, and before our relations with the Corporation deteriorated to war because of the unfortunate Hunter incident, we were in fact discussing a leapfrog with the Corporation to get to Intellectual Integrity and Planetary Economics, so that we the Federation could found the Citizen's Defence Force, and they the Corporation could build the Ascetic Virtues.
This was attractive to them with its ability to build larger bases pre-hab complex than just size four.
If you insist on prohibiting us from building the Ascetic Virtues Special Project keeping our Ascetic Virtues agreement, the Junta is therefore confident that our refound friends - of the Corporation - would be more than happy to buy Planetary Economics from us and with it the ability to adopt Ascetic Virtues.
Frankly, as you can see there's likely no chance at all you would be able to adopt the Ascetic Virtues yourselves. Why then do you insist on keeping spurious title to this Special Project? the Ascetic Virtues? We assumed it would be a trivial matter to buy back the secret project rights, so to speak. Either you gain something, such as a global trade pact and Cyberethics without having to make imcur extra costs, or either else you gain nothing.
Where lies the problem?? |
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Snoddasmannen
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Could we gift a base to the Morgans, let them build it, and then ask them to gift it back to us? We would be ready to recapture it of course, should they betray us.
But on the other hand this would be very risky since we'd have to hand over our crawlers too.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:34
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Look at this thread.
GeoModder says he's leaving because of our recent message posted in the Angel embassy. Geo has been telling me before he didn't enjoy the ACDG that much anymore (low Angels activity - things seemed more interesting with the Spartans  ), so this may have just been the final trigger, but still...
As 'spiritual father' of the message I'm wondering... I know I'm not as trustworthy as other players with regards to living by deals. My threshold for breaking deals in the game when I see a good opportunity for myself is much lower than the average. And I don't have that much diplomatic PBEM experience. Which is why I (sometimes unsuccesfully such as now  ) try to steer away from diplomacy in this ACDG. I just might screw things up.
But still, is our recent message so 'sickening', to use GeoModder's term? I just considered it hard realpolitik diplomacy. AFAIK we wouldn't be breaking the deal we signed with the Angels, not the letter but also not the spirit. We in fact never promised not to trade PlanEcon. Actually, IIRC we agreed not to build the AV back when we assumed the Corporation would build it and the promise not to build it ourselves was rather meaningless.
Also, isn't breaking deals sometimes (which AFAIK we aren't doing), making threats, doing behind-the-back deals with third parties part of the game, just like declaring war on someone, sometimes for good reason, sometimes just because it's profitable?
Does GeoModder just need to grow a thicker skin if he wants to play this game, or am I really so out of touch with the diplomatic standards of the PBEM community? 
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Snoddasmannen
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Wow, that was a powerful post by Geo.
I think it's important to remember that all the deals and negotiations we carry out in the game, we carry out wearing Spartan military uniforms and fake beards. If Sparta decides to break a deal, or threaten somebody, this does not reflect on the persons playing Sparta.
One might have grounds to complain if we are not playing like Sparta. Such as if we were to name all our cities by the names of flowers or fluffy animals.
That said, I think the message which we posted in the embassy is perfectly Sparta in-character. If it were not, surely one of us who are playing Sparta would have complained 
So the only conclusion I can draw is that Geo does not like the characteristics of Sparta, and was sickened by us. Fair enough, but we played our part well I think, and you should certainly not take this as a personal set-back in any way. This public display by Geo was uncalled for imo ...
So basically, I think he needs tougher skin But it's a shame, he's been good fun, I'll miss him.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:34
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I agree
I could see him quitting if we out-and-out broke our deal and did build the AV ourselves.
but we are merely pointing out a fact to him
If they feel so strongly, then they need to make it worth Morgan's while not to build the AV - that's diplomacy at work, but i guess if they are light in numbers then maybe no-one has the time.
So, Maniac, don't take this personally (it won't affect personal relations with GM, will it?)
It's prolly good that it was posted under my sig, as then he won't be able to attribute any ownership to you
(But "sickens" is a bit strong. Disturbed, maybe, disappointed, perhaps, but "sickened"?
Should I post something in his "goodbye" thread? Maybe:
quote:
GeoModder - as the author of that "sickening" post, I'm disappointed that you don't appreciate the in-character Spartan roleplay at work
You'll be missed - and welcomed back should you decide at some point to return
G.
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(or is that fanning the flames, so to speak?)
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vishniac
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Lausanne, Switzerland
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
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quote:
But still, is our recent message so 'sickening', to use GeoModder's term? I just considered it hard realpolitik diplomacy. AFAIK we wouldn't be breaking the deal we signed with the Angels, not the letter but also not the spirit. |
Hem... If I were to get the message we posted to the Angels, I wouldn't quit but I would sure swear to make the Spartans pay, whatever the price for me...
quote:
Does GeoModder just need to grow a thicker skin if he wants to play this game |
To PLAY this GAME?!?
I don't know him but it's just a GAME, for crying out loud!
He needs a thicker skin just to read the newspapers, just to watch the evening news, to hear that people have been killed by the dozens in Irak, by the hundreds in Uzbekistan,...
This game relaxes us from reality. not the other way.
quote:
That said, I think the message which we posted in the embassy is perfectly Sparta in-character. If it were not, surely one of us who are playing Sparta would have complained |
I'm gonna complain more in the future, then!
I read today the History of the Peloponnesian War and it was Athens, not Sparta, who treated agreements as sheets of papers and went to war lightly repeatedly, even committing atrocities.
But I'm sure you were referring to 21st Century Sparta...
Whatever, no need to apologise or to change the RP.
If it's too hot for you, just leave the kitchen!
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
Of course, many of the ACDG-2 Pirates gravitated to the ACDG-3 Angels, and remember they were really ticked off at Maniac's CyCon snagging the MCC from under their noses there
Maybe residual animosities from his teammates rubbing off on Geo? |
I'd bear in mind it's Geo, not his faction members, who has left. Geo was a CyCon in the ACDGII.
The post was not nasty in it's message, but could be construed to be so in it's language. The tone being "why don't you understand your place and let us do what we please" rather than pointing out a reality, as Googlie said. Having said that, there is nothing beyond Spartan roleplay in it, and I would not consider it offensive at all. I'm guessing it's the straw that broke the camel's back, in that the game has ceased to be fun moreso because of things like this.
However I would like to address one point Snoddasmannen made seperately:
quote:
I think it's important to remember that all the deals and negotiations we carry out in the game, we carry out wearing Spartan military uniforms and fake beards. If Sparta decides to break a deal, or threaten somebody, this does not reflect on the persons playing Sparta. |
This is not the case. Yes you are roleplaying, but you are also playing according to your playing style. Everything you do does reflect on you as a person, as it is you roleplaying something. Even in the extreme case of an actor, they are roleplaying in the extreme and yet there is still an unmistakable style of themselves. If you break deals in a DG, it's the same as in a PBEM, you are seen as someone who will break deals - a realpolitik. Whatever Sparta does reflects on the Spartans.
As said before though, I don't see your embassy post as inappropriate.
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14-05-2005 03:54
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