14-05-2005 14:42									#1
	Which title do you bear ? Put an end to popups!

Having the release of Civilization IV in view, it would be interesting to know what level we reached in Civ III.

1) Did we manage to beat the game ?
2) To what point ?

So let's see which level of difficulty we can beat. As for me, I managed to exterminate all my opponents as an Emperor (so did I in Civ 1 and Civ 2). On the contrary, I cannot survive until the birth of Christ in Demi-God. Can you ?

	14-05-2005 16:38									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

interesting substitution of the banana with a "cucumber"

very cute.

I have only beat CivIII on Emperor -- never higher. At some point you need to micromanage and be an accountant to squeeze out a little extra to beat those AI civs on higher levels

	14-05-2005 19:42									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I never go any higher than Monarch, since its just no fun to me when it gets past that point.

	14-05-2005 20:01									#4
	Support Apolyton

I can beat Demigod. I could try Deity with a good start, but it would be too much micromanagement, or too big a change of playing style to bear. I can beat some scenarios on Sid. Voted Demigod, as that was my highest SP epic game win.

Last edited by Modo44 on 14-05-2005 at 20:18

	14-05-2005 21:54									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

I guess if you only have to have beaten a level then Sid it is. If you have to be able to beat the level consistently with any reasonable map or civ, I would have to drop to Deity or even Demi.

I still have not beat Sid at Pangea and have a number of loses at Deity as well. Demi is the highest level that I really feel is not a problem.

I would say that MM is not really the issue in those levels. It is more about starts and recognition. You need to have a solid knowledge of what the AI will do in most circumstance.

You also need understand that a hole is not the same as a grave. IOW you need to realize that you can grind it out.

You may have to use tactics such as gifting a city that is doomed to a far away civ, that is hopefully weaker than the current attacker. Then go to war to get it back after the attacker is pacified.

Avoid the dog pile, but join them when you can or cause them. Be judicious in your trades and broker as often as you can.

Be more inclined to build troops than culture. IMO culture is a lost cause at the top levels so skip that temple, a horse is better.

	14-05-2005 23:09									#6
	Remove this text

hmm interesting. i should try again demigod. Just a question of translation for the Frenchman I am: what is a "dog pile" ? An alliance or something ?

	14-05-2005 23:23									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Vmxa, I really find the only things I could do better to beat Deity is a change of playing style (towards more conquest-driven games) or better MM. My general diplomacy was already good on Monarch, because this is the part of the game I enjoy the most. I know how strong my military needs to be to keep the AI at bay (be it by war or to prevent attacks). The cities go about as close as possible and efficient (CxC mixed with CxxC). The one difference between Emperor and Demigod (other than focusing more on MM) was forcing myself to give in to some demands early on, so I could build as I please. I doubt there is room for improvement anywhere else...

quote: Originally posted by M. le Comte what is a "dog pile" ? An alliance or something ?

Yes, sort of. More like the mother of all alliances. The whole world against one civ. Really hard to survive when you are on the receiving end.

	15-05-2005 01:25									#8
	Remove this text

personally i beat the computer at every level

the ai plays to win. i don't.

i play to pass the time and have some fun. fortunately, i can do that at all levels above warlord (anything less than regent does send me to sleep). every level is different and requires a different kind of play, but hey, all of them are fun. just depends what i'm in the mood for at the time.

far too many players seem to get tunnel vision about the difficulty levels
"ok, i beat level x, gotta get to level y..."
fair enough. if that's what they want. but i tend to think people develop their skills better and have more fun when they stop trying desperately to claw their way up the civ ladder.

but hey, what would i know, i still think culture is fun!

as far i titles, i recall being quite chuffed when my loyal sujets elected me queen joan, the lion-hearted.

dog-pile: se faire ch!er dessus par tous les autres chiens. tendence des ia's a s'allier contre n'importe quel civ qui soit le plus faible

	15-05-2005 01:41									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Modo44 I know some play quite peacefully at deity, but it is not my style. It can be done though. I focus on troops as soon as I either get horses or know I won't.

lebensraum I would think all that are still playing are playing for the fun. At some point emperor is just not a challenge without some variant or bad starts. You then have to move up.

Me, I just played some demi and some deity and figured if I have to work hard, I may as well see what sid is like. I found I enjoyed the massive fights during invasions.

I cranked off a demi a few games back, but after the struggle of the AA, you get moving and it is a lock. The time to get moving is much shorter at demi.

Anyway I suspect to play a builder only type of game will take a lot more skill and work than a semi warmonger or total one. I know you would have to do better than I care to do with relationships. One of the things I like is they are all soon furious with me and I can treat them as such.

	15-05-2005 02:13									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have yet to beat Chieftain. So I guess, my title is cucumber.

	15-05-2005 02:21									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I can beat Demigod. I could try Deity with a good start, but it would be too much micromanagement, or too big a change of playing style to bear. I can beat some scenarios on Sid. Voted Demigod, as that was my highest SP epic game win.

Same for me.

	15-05-2005 02:36									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I can beat Demigod. I could try Deity with a good start, but it would be too much micromanagement, or too big a change of playing style to bear. I can beat some scenarios on Sid. Voted Demigod, as that was my highest SP epic game win.

Sums me up aswell, but I also get bored as soon as I the game is a "Lock", as vmxa1 put it. I find it more fun getting out of the hole and shoving the AI down one.

---

However, has anyone compared SP to MP? I find PBEM to be more fun than SP, because while you don't start in a hole, you have to work to stop yourself falling down one.

	15-05-2005 02:54									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey, stop using my lines, dammit!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I have yet to beat Chieftain. So I guess, my title is cucumber.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum far too many players seem to get tunnel vision about the difficulty levels "ok, i beat level x, gotta get to level y..." fair enough. if that's what they want.

It is. A big part of the fun of getting up to Demigod was, well, the getting there.

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum but i tend to think people develop their skills better and have more fun when they stop trying desperately to claw their way up the civ ladder.

I disagree. The higher difficulty levels force you to become a more efficient manager/killer/cultural leader/whatever. If it was not for them, your basic game skills development would come to a stop. You can win Monarch with OCN spacing and no Granaries, but you will lose at Demigod. If you stay "low" (whatever that means for you personally), you will never need to develop more efficient approaches, hence you will suck. To put it nicely, your skills will not develop well unless you try to beat ever higher difficulty levels.

If you do not believe me, try playing SMAC. You can win it rather easy on the highest difficulty level against the AI, but still get slaughtered against humans. All this because the most the game can come up with is at about Emperor level when compared to Civ3. You do not get the final polish of basic skills the Civ3 AI can provide.

	15-05-2005 19:25									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 At some point emperor is just not a challenge without some variant or bad starts. You then have to move up.

no, no, no ,no, no, no...

i'm not suggesting people should go on playing cheiftain forever more. in fact, i don't even disagree with running this sort of survey now and then - it's already turned up some worthwhile insights. i for one was not previously aware that sir ralph is a cousin of the great pumpkin.

learn to trust your feelings you must

i sometimes get bored playing regent, monarch, emperoror,.. sid. the point is, all the levels are different, they each have something to offer.
and yes, if a level is getting dull, you should try something different. i'm sure if they added a level above sid, some of us would not rest until we felt able to beat it. that's just human nature.

the other day, i had a random emperor start - riverside grassland with wheat, ag civ, 3 riverside bg tiles, 2 lux within reach, closest ai not 'too close for comfort'. ie. automatic settler pump, and i started with alpha. within half an hour i lost interest.
next start - non-ag civ. only 3 workable tiles, wines but no fresh water, surrounded by about eight tiles of hills and jungle in every direction. iroq/maya/inca for nieghbours (yeah, big surprise). now that's a start worth playing. if i get whipped, fair enough.

i guess my basic point is
1) 'level' of play is deceptive and covers a multitude of sins.
2) those who are still finding their way should not be in too much of a hurry to rush their way through to the 'space invader' levels.

i understand your point of view. i'm not telling you to stop cheating with sid and get back to playing an honest, random demi start. but for those who still struggle at one level and are impatient to reach the next one, i say ".., oh why bother, you'll never listen to me anyway."

	15-05-2005 19:58									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I disagree.

sh!t. surprise me!!!

quote: If you stay "low" you will suck.

ok, so i suck. you got a problem with that?!!

quote: To put it nicely

yeah, right. that'd be a first.

quote: your skills will not develop well unless you try to beat ever higher difficulty levels.

meh, even if you try to stay at a given level, eventually you will master it in all it's various forms. you will then be ready to try a different level.

there's really no need to rush the process

	15-05-2005 20:12									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum ok, so i suck. you got a problem with that?!!

Not really. Care for a PBEM?

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum meh, even if you try to stay at a given level, eventually you will master it in all it's various forms. you will then be ready to try a different level. there's really no need to rush the process

True, going too high will probably just frustrate you, so no point doing that.

But if you stay at, say, Regent, you will never need the skills required to beat Demigod. Meaning, there will be nothing to encourage you to develop new skills (like tighter city spacing, Settler-pumps, or what have you). So, at some point, going up a level will be required to actually learn anything new about the game.

	15-05-2005 21:02									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by lebensraum i play to pass the time and have some fun. fortunately, i can do that at all levels above warlord (anything less than regent does send me to sleep). every level is different and requires a different kind of play, but hey, all of them are fun. just depends what i'm in the mood for at the time.

Do you have fun when you win too easily?

	15-05-2005 21:57									#18
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Do you have fun when you win too easily?

only in pbems

	16-05-2005 04:45									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Monarch is for a chilly game
Emperor is when I want competition
Everything above would be suicide and the stress level outweighs the fun.

And most of the time I stop when it's obvious that I am the winner... I probably finish only 5% of the games I start.
I also try to play nice with the AI some time and coop and such...

I had a good game that way as the Inca where I had to fight the strong Japanese (they are always strong) and I teamed up with the chinese and carthago... it was a long and very bloody war. In the end we were victorious. Then the carthagians decided to betray me, which actually was a clever and dumb descision at the same time. From their point they'd need to do that, but I was a lot stronger than them.
The japanese were lucky because their island was connect to ours by just a small passage, where they put a fort and a barricade. It was difficult to enter their territory and once there you got beaten up quickly. Then I decided to take on them from the other side as well and landed lots of troops on their shores... took some time until I could get a hold though.... and it would have taken even longer, if I wouldn't have targeted his resources.

ah well... war stories

	16-05-2005 13:35									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If I played on regent now I'd have a chance to beat the game but it's not a 100%. After 2 or 3 games regent would be cool, but still be a bit of a challenge in situations. I never managed to even survive in style on Monarch, the AI just killed me.

	16-05-2005 13:35									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And I'm a decent civ player, I'm just not intrigued to deep strategic thinking. That's why I fail at chess, too. Also, I fell back to King level in Civ2, deity is just too much of a hassle. Don't know why.

	16-05-2005 19:28									#22
	Suffering from ads?

So on this forum,
there are almost as many players who win at Monarch or lower levels as players who win at emperor or higher levels.

I am amazed by people winning at demi-god or higher. I never could. I'm going to try again.

I am also amazed by the fact that there is a winner at "sid's" whereas there isn't any winner at god level.

But 26 voters aren't enough... please participate ! that's an issue vote !

	16-05-2005 21:12									#23
	Tired of ads?

Demi, just about always.

	16-05-2005 23:56									#24
	Remove this text

Chieftain no problem Tried Warlord, but it wasnt fun.

Tomasz

	19-05-2005 13:43									#25
	Got spare money?

I play mostly monarch, sometimes emperor. Being a builder, the other levels soon lost interest. For me, monarch provides a good balance between being able to concentrate on your civ and still having some challenge when you get into a fight.

I tried demi-god and god, but I had to quit - I lost a few pieces of furniture in some surges of uncontrolled rage when the AI beat me. I know that's the essence of challenge, but it's a little bit too much of a challenge for me to be comfortable with...

	19-05-2005 19:32									#26
	Remove this text

Btw, I might want to ask the people on high difficulties: Do you play with Preserve Random Seed on, or do you save and reload when the combat is not turning out in your favor?

	19-05-2005 19:49									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Btw, I might want to ask the people on high difficulties: Do you play with Preserve Random Seed on, or do you save and reload when the combat is not turning out in your favor?

I have this option on ever since it was included (I believe it was always on in Vanilla.), to prevent myself from reloading. Also, the higher the difficulty level the more battles, so reloading would make games ridiculously tedious. I see this happening on Demigod, so I can only imagine the time it would take on Sid (ask vmxa...). The positive effect is that you get to see the real randomness work well, as opposed to "weird" effects that show only when there are few fights.

	19-05-2005 22:45									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 The positive effect is that you get to see the real randomness work well, as opposed to "weird" effects that show only when there are few fights.

That's right, but the AI cheats so much that I sometimes regret being, as you are, full of principles.

	19-05-2005 22:50									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by M. le Comte That's right, but the AI cheats so much that I sometimes regret being, as you are, full of principles.

And I can bet that, as I do, you always loose every principle when it comes to the annexion of an adversary city: bombing, besieging, "reduction of the city size" in order to avoid any difficulty with surviving nationalists...

By the way, I'm going to launch a new poll on Civ4 forum: what do you think of the censorship on terrorism...

	20-05-2005 01:49									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Every time I play at Demi or higher, I get beaten (wiped out, eaten alive, etc) well before 1000AD, must be something wrong with my style of play. Have yet to achieve a cultural or diplomatic victory at Emperor though.

Must try harder.