15-05-2005 20:39									#1
	UN sez: 24,000 Iraqis dead from war and the first year of occupation Tired of ads?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1610143,00.html

That's a lot, but also less than the 100,000 figure of the Lancet study.

	15-05-2005 20:43									#2
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I have no idea, I haven't been there, no one knows for sure, but IMO that sounds about right. Tough to say though. It's still a lot though.. it's a lot...

	15-05-2005 20:48									#3
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Are these only the people killed in the fighting or does it include those who died as a result of the disruption of society?

In any event, given the massive numbers that were dying before the war, this may be a net gain for the Iraqi people, as somehting like 150,000 a year were dying previously from sanctions.

	15-05-2005 20:54									#4
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and the number killed from Saddam

now we didn't go into there for the right reasons

but we can do some good while we are in there, if we pressure our representatives...

Jon miller

	15-05-2005 22:43									#5
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24,000 is much more reasonable than that BS Lancet one, that unfortunately have been used by my fellow lefties as an excuse for knee-jerk anti-americanism.

	15-05-2005 23:04									#6
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Does this study include casualties from terror attacks and coalition combat operations or does it just stick to excess civilian deaths due to disruption of sservices?

	15-05-2005 23:23									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Odin 24,000 is much more reasonable than that BS Lancet one, that unfortunately have been used by my fellow lefties as an excuse for knee-jerk anti-americanism.

That would make a comparable figure of 300000 in the US. Less than the Civil War; very reasonable indeed.

	16-05-2005 00:14									#8
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24,000 is not much.

	16-05-2005 00:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT That would make a comparable figure of 300000 in the US. Less than the Civil War; very reasonable indeed.

Especially since during the civil war we had, what, less than a third of our current population.

	16-05-2005 00:26									#10
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quote: 24,000 is much more reasonable than that BS Lancet one, that unfortunately have been used by my fellow lefties as an excuse for knee-jerk anti-americanism.

I'm not out to promote anti-Americanism, but 24,000 deaths is just as bad as 100,000 deaths, in that 0 of them should have happened.

	16-05-2005 00:27									#11
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but 100000 would be happening anyway...


Jon Miller

	16-05-2005 00:28									#12
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so it shouldn't be compared to 0...

Jon Miller

	16-05-2005 00:43									#13
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell I'm not out to promote anti-Americanism, but 24,000 deaths is just as bad as 100,000 deaths

At least 76,000 people would disagree vehemently.

	16-05-2005 00:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but 100000 would be happening anyway.

That's unclear from this information.

	16-05-2005 03:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Odin 24,000 is much more reasonable than that BS Lancet one, that unfortunately have been used by my fellow lefties as an excuse for knee-jerk anti-americanism.

24,000 is reasonable? I'm with MrMitchell on this one.

	16-05-2005 03:22									#16
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he is saying that the number is more likely to be correct

he isn't saying that 24k is an ok number to have died..

Jon Miller
(he is talking about the approximation)

	16-05-2005 03:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij 24,000 is reasonable? I'm with MrMitchell on this one.

I'm with the Gimp.

	16-05-2005 05:16									#18
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I'd like to see how the figure was arrived at and what metodology was used. The reason is I want to make sure they aren't counting people who would have died anyway war or now war plus it is hard to blame the death of a child who caught a disease from drinking sewage tainted water on the war since the sewer systems have been screwed up since 1991.

Parts of the article lead me to believe something like that might be happening since they're comparing the post invasion situation to the conditions in the 1980's.

	16-05-2005 05:28									#19
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The figure seems too low. It would mean that 65 people died per day. It seems to me that the terrorist attacks that happen each couple of days and kill about 100 people add up for that alone.

	16-05-2005 05:42									#20
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The terror attacks weren't happening in the first year which is the time period looked at by this study.

	16-05-2005 07:53									#21
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Anybody remember the "shock and awe" bombing campaign? Lots of people had to have died in those blasts.

And we flattened numerous Iraqi divisions.

24,000 seems really low.

& The US alone has had 1,600 killed. A 15:1 kill ratio also sounds low.

	16-05-2005 07:56									#22
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quote: 24,000 seems really low.

Especially when compared to the 24,000,000 who got to experience free elections as a result.

	16-05-2005 08:17									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Anybody remember the "shock and awe" bombing campaign? Lots of people had to have died in those blasts. And we flattened numerous Iraqi divisions. 24,000 seems really low. & The US alone has had 1,600 killed. A 15:1 kill ratio also sounds low.

Once again this is for May 2003 to May 2004. There were no where near 1600 dead GIs back in May 2004.

	16-05-2005 09:45									#24
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That's some good news, I think. It's a whole lot lower than before the war, with the sanctions. More or less what che said.

	16-05-2005 14:18									#25
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And now here's a quote from Unicef about what the sanctions in the 1990's did-

quote: Ms. Bellamy noted that if the substantial reduction in child mortality throughout Iraq during the 1980s had continued through the 1990s, there would have been half a million fewer deaths of children under-five in the country as a whole during the eight year period 1991 to 1998.

http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm

...and that's just the under 5's.

	17-05-2005 10:33									#26
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If one reads the article, it states that it was a household survey of 21,000 households held in May 2004. (Ergo, the first year. We are in year 2 now)

So, it misses 1 year's worth of violence, including the worst violence.

It also has a range, from a low of 18,000, to a high of 29,000.