17-05-2005 02:20									#1
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Im Spain, upto about 1568.

Ive conquered pretty much to historical extent in Americas. Mexico, Incas, Chimmu (?). Also Cherokee. Plus colonized to round it out some - Panama, a couple of provinces bordering Mexico, several more adjacent to Cherokee lands, and several in Carib, plus a few trading posts.

In europe ive got spain, including navarre and Bearn. Ive got Milan and Mantua in Italy. Ive got the southern provinces only in the netherlands - flanders, brabant, Lux, Lorraine. I Holland et all stayed with Gelre, and i never inheritated them from Austria/CharlesV.

Also, Turkey is farther away than in actual history - Venice has the west side of the Balkans - no Ottoman threat to the central Med.

Well ive been reading "The Grand Strategy of Phillip II" and it occurs to me, that in my position, Phil might not have been at war - he was pressed into war by the Dutch rebellion, the Turkish threat. He went to war with England as the only way to hold onto the Netherlands. If he COULD have, he'd have been better off staying at peace, at least for awhile.

Im not sure theres much to be gained by going to war in Europe now. Im already too big to make stab or research easy (realistic, I think) Better perhaps to stay at peace, and not to colonize further, but to build improvements, manufactories, and to research? I know there are some negative/Spanish decline events coming up - is it a case of go for broke now while you can? Or build to offset the decline?

	17-05-2005 04:15									#2
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I'd use every available resource at my disposal till game end...colonists included! But, if you're wanting a more historical feel, and given your current position, perhaps now would be the time dig in, stop focusing on colonizing, and get ready for some dark days ahead (you'll just LOVE some of the events to come!)

-=Vel=-

	17-05-2005 08:18									#3
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DEVELOP! Then expand.

	17-05-2005 16:18									#4
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Use those precious colonists, claim your rightful possessions in the new world! Other than that, staying at peace might be a good idea if youŽve got some badboy points; otherwise, try to ally with france and force vassalize their foes...

	17-05-2005 19:52									#5
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Better perhaps to stay at peace, and not to colonize further, but to build improvements, manufactories, and to research? I know there are some negative/Spanish decline events coming up - is it a case of go for broke now while you can? Or build to offset the decline?

Hm, do you know details of those events (from an earlier game)? Because I played Spain recently as well two or three times, but I'm not sure if I should post something which could be considered as spoilers....

	17-05-2005 21:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'd use every available resource at my disposal till game end...colonists included! But, if you're wanting a more historical feel, and given your current position, perhaps now would be the time dig in, stop focusing on colonizing, and get ready for some dark days ahead (you'll just LOVE some of the events to come!) -=Vel=-

The problem is even with only moderate colonizing, they use up a fair amount of money. Im trying to keep inflation down, so all my money comes from annual taxes, and I direct the monthly to research (and occasionally to stab - lets not debate THAT now).

Im getting less than 350 ducats a year on the annual taxes. If I send even two or three colonists a year, and start a couple of officials a year, and send a couple of merchants a year, that leaves nothing for conversions or to save up for a manufactory.

also increasing the number of provinces will slow research and stability even further, wont it?

	17-05-2005 21:09									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara DEVELOP! Then expand.

Thats what im leaning towards.

	17-05-2005 21:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Micha Use those precious colonists, claim your rightful possessions in the new world! Other than that, staying at peace might be a good idea if youŽve got some badboy points; otherwise, try to ally with france and force vassalize their foes...

Ally with France!!!! Ive got Bearn, and they have perm CB on me, and very poor relations.

	17-05-2005 21:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Hm, do you know details of those events (from an earlier game)? Because I played Spain recently as well two or three times, but I'm not sure if I should post something which could be considered as spoilers....

Ive skimmed the events files, but I didnt memorize them, or even understand them all. Ive heard about things like releasing new world gold provinces to avoid bankruptcy, but that seems to gamey to me - i'll take whats coming.

If you have advice and dont want to do a spoiler, you might try putting it in historical terms - theres nothing spoilerish as far as im concerned about discussing actual 16th or 17th century history.

	17-05-2005 21:25									#10
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Ok it should not reveal too much when I say that money for a manufactory may be spent wiser after several events of the late 16th/early 17th century. OTOH later things may be much more expensive when you have a higher inflation, since Spain seems not be good in reducing it (mildly expressed).

	17-05-2005 21:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ally with France!!!! Ive got Bearn, and they have perm CB on me, and very poor relations.

Which is exactly why I say ally with them! As long as you fight together, they cannot declare war on you. France usually is the only serious foe of Spain in EU2, so youŽd almost guarantee victory by allying with them.

	18-05-2005 02:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Micha Which is exactly why I say ally with them! As long as you fight together, they cannot declare war on you. France usually is the only serious foe of Spain in EU2, so youŽd almost guarantee victory by allying with them.

I just cant see Spain and France reaching agreement, to the point of alliance, at least prior to the outbreak of open civil war in France. If the game lets me do that, its, well, a gamey exploit.

I mean France is SUPPOSED to be the thorn in my side. And nothing has happened in the game thus far to alter that.

	18-05-2005 05:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I just cant see Spain and France reaching agreement, to the point of alliance, at least prior to the outbreak of open civil war in France. If the game lets me do that, its, well, a gamey exploit. I mean France is SUPPOSED to be the thorn in my side. And nothing has happened in the game thus far to alter that.

An alternate history where France and Spain remained in acceptable terms wouldn't be completely unrealistic though. France would have been more than happy to have more resources for its own econmomic ventures, and for wars on continental Europe, without worrying about the southern neighbour.

If Spain is neither extremely rich & weak, nor allied with France's greatest rival for European domination (Austria), I don't think why an alliance wouldn't work. I mean, you both are Catholics and hate the Rosbifs. What more could you hope for?

	18-05-2005 18:28									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor An alternate history where France and Spain remained in acceptable terms wouldn't be completely unrealistic though. France would have been more than happy to have more resources for its own econmomic ventures, and for wars on continental Europe, without worrying about the southern neighbour. If Spain is neither extremely rich & weak, nor allied with France's greatest rival for European domination (Austria), I don't think why an alliance wouldn't work. I mean, you both are Catholics and hate the Rosbifs. What more could you hope for?

Actually Spain/Castille had been allied to England for 150 years, to balance France. Spain didnt start to oppose England till the 1560's. Spain and France were natural rivals for influence in Italy and the Med, in the Navarre and Rousillo/Rosselo. In addition, by inheriting Burgundy, Phillip was heir to the Burgundian rivalry with the French throne, and to rivalry over Walloonia. Further, as a Hapsburg, Phillip naturally sides with his Austrian cousins against French expansion in Germany.

Simply by holding on to all the lands the Hapsburgs inherit in Italy, Spain, Netherlands, and the HRE, the Hapsburgs tend to encircle France, to which France responds by opposing Spain. Even Henry III, who was Catholic, opposed Spain, despite Phillips marriage to Elizabeth of Valois. When Phillip planned to attack England, there was much talk of how much easier it would be to do this allied with France, and how they could then partition England. Phillip rejected this approach, saying France was an unreliable partition partner, and citing the earlier experience in the kingdom of Naples, where an attempted partition led to squabbling, which the Spanish blamed on France.

The only friends the Spanish had in France were the hard line Catholics under the Duke of Guise, but they lost out.

Its still not clear to me how the French Wars of Religion play out in game terms.

France has been messing around in the new world (in game), and thats a further issue.

I'd need an earlier POD (point of departure) to make this work, RP-wise. One where Spain had either avoided the Hapsburg inheritance (but i went with the historical choice on that event) or where Spain was more distant from Austria from early on (which A. I havent done thus far and B. strikes me as REALLY out of character for Phillip II, who was very loyal to his fathers political legacy)

	18-05-2005 22:03									#15
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So don't RP.

	19-05-2005 02:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So don't RP.

perhaps at some point I'll try different approaches to this game. For now, I prefer to RP. (See the Whither Spain thread here)

	19-05-2005 07:37									#17
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its still not clear to me how the French Wars of Religion play out in game terms.

IIRC (It's been a few weeks already, so my memory is cloudy), there are some provinces that convert, and a historical choice about massacring the heretics or not. There is quite some unrest. I don't remember if the relationship to the neighbours are affected.

	19-05-2005 14:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark perhaps at some point I'll try different approaches to this game. For now, I prefer to RP. (See the Whither Spain thread here)

The main thing you should do, if you haven't already is convert the pagans - spreading the word of God.

Expand slowly, send one or two colonists a year. Get existing colonies up to full provinces so you can put in tax collectors. Try and link up your possessions by colonising empty provinces in between. Grab any colonies started by catholic countries in your ToT provinces. War in the New World to keep the heretics out.

You need governors - infra 5. Concentrate your research on this and promote them in all provinces. Then you can mint some of your monthly income whilst slowly reducing inflation. Consolidate now and look to crush your European rivals towards the end of the game having taken their colonial possessions as opportunity allows.

	24-05-2005 02:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The main thing you should do, if you haven't already is convert the pagans - spreading the word of God. Expand slowly, send one or two colonists a year. Get existing colonies up to full provinces so you can put in tax collectors. Try and link up your possessions by colonising empty provinces in between. Grab any colonies started by catholic countries in your ToT provinces. War in the New World to keep the heretics out. You need governors - infra 5. Concentrate your research on this and promote them in all provinces. Then you can mint some of your monthly income whilst slowly reducing inflation. Consolidate now and look to crush your European rivals towards the end of the game having taken their colonial possessions as opportunity allows.

this is pretty much what ive been doing. Ive been sending out a missionary every couple of years, so that i have two or three active at any one time. Two failed in a row, in Talahasee, but I finally got a success, in Tennesee. Ive now got missionaries at work in Alabama and Talahassee again.

Ive continued to expand tax collectors in South America.
about one a year.

im sending out Colonists to existing colonies or TPs. Ive got Mobile up to 9 (where I will leave it, let pop growth do the rest) and im getting several hits in Tortuga, which has natives.

I just got infra 5, and am building my first Governor in castille. Ive shifted research to trade (so i can get embargoes) and naval. When i get the trade tech I will shift all research to military, both naval and land, to catch up to England and Austria and France. I hope to have many governors by the time i catch up, so i can start minting monthly revenues.

Ive just vassalized Portugal (via events- 1580) and the Netherlands (see thread on that)

I almost went to war in Italy (pope, verona and Austria were at war with Genoa and Venice) but i wasnt ready, and in time it took to get ready, the Austrian alliance made peace.


If I drop my alliance with Portugal, will that affect their status as my vassal?

	24-05-2005 03:00									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If I drop my alliance with Portugal, will that affect their status as my vassal?

No. If you let it expire, it has no effects, if you fire Portugal from the pact, youŽll get a relation hit and they get a CB on you.

Is it for roleplay reasons that you are researching several things at a time? If not, I strongly advise to always put 100% of your budget into one single research, since the technologies donŽt count as fractionals, so having two techs half researched is worth nothing. Also start with the techs that increase revenues (infra, trade) and then research military tech (land!!!), switching between those every now and then.

	24-05-2005 19:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If I drop my alliance with Portugal, will that affect their status as my vassal?

Not if you simply let it expire. However, if you have any intention of diploannexing Portugal later on it is best to keep them in alliance as it tends to prevent them getting involved elsewhere and losing territory, etc. to other European powers.

They should be a fairly easy DA once 30 years have elapsed and you have a monarch with a reasonable diplomatic rating on the throne. It is a two edged sword however as their "empire" is usually a mess of half finished colonies and scattered TP's and you will acquire BB points. AFAIK it also finishes the ToT immediately (in the later betas). I tend to wait until later in the 1600s to do this if I feel inclined to do so at all.

	24-05-2005 21:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Micha No. If you let it expire, it has no effects, if you fire Portugal from the pact, youŽll get a relation hit and they get a CB on you. Is it for roleplay reasons that you are researching several things at a time? If not, I strongly advise to always put 100% of your budget into one single research, since the technologies donŽt count as fractionals, so having two techs half researched is worth nothing. Also start with the techs that increase revenues (infra, trade) and then research military tech (land!!!), switching between those every now and then.

ISTR reading somewhere that if you put any one tech slider all the way over to the right, that there was declining return your investment. Not sure where I saw that.

	24-05-2005 21:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Not if you simply let it expire. However, if you have any intention of diploannexing Portugal later on it is best to keep them in alliance as it tends to prevent them getting involved elsewhere and losing territory, etc. to other European powers. They should be a fairly easy DA once 30 years have elapsed and you have a monarch with a reasonable diplomatic rating on the throne. It is a two edged sword however as their "empire" is usually a mess of half finished colonies and scattered TP's and you will acquire BB points. AFAIK it also finishes the ToT immediately (in the later betas). I tend to wait until later in the 1600s to do this if I feel inclined to do so at all.

In RL (OTL) Spain lost Portugal in the 1640's. Will I not lose Portugal by then ingame?

I have Phillip II now. My impression is that my monarchs will be declining in quality for quite some while.

	25-05-2005 15:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In RL (OTL) Spain lost Portugal in the 1640's. Will I not lose Portugal by then ingame?

No, there is no event that breaks the vassalisation, you will only lose it if relations decline. As long as relations are +125 they will remain vassals, particularly if in a military alliance with you.

quote: I have Phillip II now. My impression is that my monarchs will be declining in quality for quite some while.

Yes, they will decline but not so much it is a problem. If you get an "excellent minister" event that boosts your monarch's rating then throw some money at Portugal to improve relations and you should be able to annex them without any problem. Last time I played Spain I annexed Portugal in around 1670 without any problem this way (I did save the game so I could reload if the annexation failed but it worked anyway).

	26-05-2005 21:07									#25
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the missionizing has been going much better. After two failures in a row, ive now had three successes, in Tennessee, Savannah, and Talahassee. Alabama is the last ex-Cherokee province thats still pagan. After that I will work on South America.

	07-06-2005 09:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Ok it should not reveal too much when I say that money for a manufactory may be spent wiser after several events of the late 16th/early 17th century. OTOH later things may be much more expensive when you have a higher inflation, since Spain seems not be good in reducing it (mildly expressed).

is after 1628 safe for Spain to build manufactories - are there MORE bankruptcy events?

	07-06-2005 14:15									#27
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There are only two state bankruptcy events. Haven't you looked through the event files?

	07-06-2005 21:01									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Qilue There are only two state bankruptcy events. Haven't you looked through the event files?

Not lately, no.

	08-06-2005 07:56									#29
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The ones in England's concerning the Netherlands are quite interesting.

	13-06-2005 18:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV No, there is no event that breaks the vassalisation, you will only lose it if relations decline. As long as relations are +125 they will remain vassals, particularly if in a military alliance with you.

It turns out there IS an event that breaks vassalization. Its "Portugal Revolts!" First comes, in 1640, "Catalonia Revolts!" (History on rails, or is it triggered by the war and war exhaustion I had - though i was fighting different folks than in OTL) I took the crush em option (didnt want a jump in aristo) and then got Portugal Revolts and Italy Revolts. Not sure if my choice in the first event was a trigger, or if there was a random element.

Portugal remained my ally, and remained at war with England. I quickly did a royal marriage with them, so relations arent too bad (about +90).