29-05-2005 19:56									#421
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A member of the faithful to the last.

How predictable.

Even when history and practical economic experience point the other direction, you cling to the faulty beliefs of your "religion."

That's okay...I honestly didn't think you'd get anything out of it, other than what you wanted to, of course.

PS: Since there are apparently a vast number of bald assertions, perhaps you'd care to point them out, or even what "important stuff" he leaves alone....ahhh, but that goes back to an earlier comment. Far easier to simply say it than to actually bring them to light.

That's cool tho...go read some more Marxist fantasy.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 20:04									#422
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You're going to have to pick out parts of the argument that you want critique on. I'm not going to just pick stuff at random.

	29-05-2005 20:07									#423
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Hmmm...well, that's interesting, but as I cannot read minds, I really have no way of knowing which of the assertions posted there you consider to be his "bald assertions," nor any way of plumbing the depths of your mind to discern what "important stuff" you feel the author of said critique has left out.

That, my friend, falls to you.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 20:09									#424
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So I take it that you agreed with everything said?

	29-05-2005 20:11									#425
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Stop dodging the question. Which parts I agree with, or whether or not I agree with it in its entirety have NOTHING to do with what YOU feel are the author's "bald assertions" or "important stuff" left out of the critique.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 20:12									#426
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I'm not going to critique any argument that no one here agrees with.

	29-05-2005 20:16									#427
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I expected as much.

Well then, if you need to hear that at least one person agrees with the critique...if that will make you feel better and suddenly validate your counter-critique...then yes, count me as one who accepts the author's explanations as a viable debunking of Marxist theory.

Now...by all means, proceed.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 20:25									#428
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I'll assume that you accept the whole argument as your own and counter-argue the whole thing then. It's going to take some time though.

	29-05-2005 20:30									#429
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Please do not feel obliged to construct an entire counter-argument, unless you just simply want to.

I merely asked you to point out what you felt were the author's various "bald assertions" and what "important stuff" he left out.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 20:47									#430
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You don't even have to go into any detail. A simple "laundry-list" of bald assertions and/or grevious omissions will do. I didn't ask the question in order to facilitate the start of yet another pointless debate with you....only out of idle curiosity.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 21:48									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Please do not feel obliged to construct an entire counter-argument, unless you just simply want to. I merely asked you to point out what you felt were the author's various "bald assertions" and what "important stuff" he left out.

Pointing things out things that you simply disagree with is not an argument.

quote: I didn't ask the question in order to facilitate the start of yet another pointless debate with you....only out of idle curiosity.

So you present an argument, but you aren't willing to debate it?

	29-05-2005 22:06									#432
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Jesus Christ, Kid...can you READ? You said:

He mostly makes bald assertions, but there is some logic to it. He mostly argues points that aren't very important, and leaves the important stuff alone.

And in reply, I asked a simple two-part question. What do YOU feel were his "bald assertions" and what "important stuff" did he omit from his analysis?

Note that I did not demand (or even ask) you to argue the point, only what (specifically) you took issue with, per above.

What about that question is so hard to understand?

The only conclusion I can draw from your constant hemming and hawing, dancing frantically around to avoid that relatively straightforward question is that you, as usual, HAVE no answers.

I've made every effort to make it as easy as possible for you, completely removing the requirement to offer the least bit of explanation for WHY you feel this or that is a "bald assertion", and as a student of Marx, it should be fairly easy to spot the "important stuff" the critic missed, so where's the mystery here?

Why the big dance 'round the subject?

Again, I'm only able to draw but a single conclusion.

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 22:11									#433
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On second thought nevermind. I can see why you wouldn't want me to actually argue the points. It would be a waste of time.

	29-05-2005 22:15									#434
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If it would make you feel better to delve into a counter-critique in typical Marxist style, then yes please, have a go at it.

That you cannot even answer a simple two-part question asked of you regarding the critique you so easily dismissed is evidence enough that said full-blown counter-critique would be little more than hot air anyways.

But no....at this point, looking for ANY way to weasel out of answering what should be a straightforward question, I can certainly see the attraction to dodge now.

I'll ask it again, just so it's fresh in your mind:

a) What do you believe the author's various "bald assertions" were?

b) What "important Marxist stuff" did the author omit or overlook in his analysis?

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 22:19									#435
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Too many games for me Vel. I'll pass. Say what you will.

	29-05-2005 22:44									#436
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Yep. Once more proving my point.

Wouldn't it have just been easier (and more honest) to say "I don't know" than to try and dodge and wiggle out of a simple answer for a dozen posts?

It's okay not to know, I just wanted to hear your thoughts. You posted something rather general, I asked if you could specify. That's all.

And even to that simple request, I get dodgy responses, and ultimately.....

.....silence.

Dead air.

Which...now that I think about it, sums up your whole position rather well.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: So then, as far as you're concerned, being unable to explain, or even vaguely enumerate what's wrong with the refutation mentioned, it stands?

Last edited by Velociryx on 29-05-2005 at 23:29

	29-05-2005 22:50									#437
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Communism=system with no motivation for underproduction.

	29-05-2005 23:47									#438
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Kidicious:

muxec: Communism=system with no motivation for underproduction.

That's....an intriguing way to put it. Not sure I understand completely, because that would imply that its opposite number (capitalism) IS a system with motivation for underproduction....which in turn means that capitalists willingly make inefficient use of their assets so as to intentionally not earn as much as they could?

I can sortakinna see some very specific case where maybe if the cost of entry into a business was insanely high, and there was a monopoly or near-monopoly position held by a large producer, that producer could then intentionally NOT operate at full capacity, artifically raising prices, but I'm not able to put my finger on any real-world examples of this occuring that weren't dealt with either by a) government intervention, or b) new competiton arising despite the formidable costs of entry.

One could, I suppose, argue that Microsoft occupies just such a positon now, what with a near-total lock on the desktop market....except that the observable phenomenon we have seen is that the price of computers has continued to drop, AND we're getting more computing bang for the dollars we are spending, AND there are free OS opportunities out there, so that's prolly not a good example of what you're referring to.

I dunno...do you have an example in mind?

-=Vel=-

	29-05-2005 23:51									#439
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That's....an intriguing way to put it. Not sure I understand completely, because that would imply that its opposite number (capitalism) IS a system with motivation for underproduction....which in turn means that capitalists willingly make inefficient use of their assets so as to intentionally not earn as much as they could? -=Vel=-

That's like the most flawed piece of logic I've ever heard.

	29-05-2005 23:53									#440
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You must not have read any Marx then...

And I wasn't trying to formulate an argument...just trying to see where muxec was heading.

-=Vel=-

	30-05-2005 01:24									#441
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Apparently Vel is unaware of the unemployment problem.

	30-05-2005 02:00									#442
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Oh good! Kid's back.

In that case:

a) What do you see are the author's "bald assertions" of the critique above

b) What "important stuff" did the critique miss?

Until you at least favor me with some type of answer on the previously asked question, I see little reason to respond to your latest.

-=Vel=-

	30-05-2005 02:05									#443
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So what?

	30-05-2005 02:19									#444
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Communism for Dummies:

The poker game example.

In Capitalism:
The idea is to hog all the good cards and dump the bad cards. Nothing else matters, except that YOU have the right cards. If someone else has good cards, it means you prolly get bad cards. What are you going to do about it? Bluff your way out of it? Risky is the road for million dollar journey. Many have made it, many have lost theirselves trying.

In Communism:
You get one card and it's small. You can't get new cards of discard this one. You HAVE to call. The dealer is dressed in police junta uniform and has 15. You don't know how he did it but the lucky guy next to you with the ace lost also. You ask for a second round but you don't get new cards. There are plenty of others waiting in the line and the rules says only one game per player. The free drink never arrived, in fact the waiter is missing. You ask for the waiter but the level security boss gives you a bad feeling so you just keep your mouth shot so you won't end up missing too. As you walk away, you see wires and people having buttons on their ears and mirrors.. you quickly gather that it's a set up, and in fact you have no chance of winning because the house is cheating. You either accept it as necessary evil, or walk out without your knees.

Many have tried in the journey for millions. None made it.

	30-05-2005 02:23									#445
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I think Pekka is giving Vel some competition in the caricature department.

	30-05-2005 04:14									#446
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Pekka:

Kid:

(but again, as you seem to have no response whatsoever in regards to the refutation, I'll have to assume that it stands. Does this mean you've "switched sides"?

-=Vel=-

	30-05-2005 06:00									#447
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Kid, I'd really like to hear a response to that essay. I'm not sure how to respond to it myself (still only half way through).
I'd like to see an argument made in Marx's defense. I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that you said you could provide one, so you really should do it. Otherwise Vel's going to dance all over this and claim triumph and you're going to look silly.

	30-05-2005 06:04									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Kid, I'd really like to hear a response to that essay. I'm not sure how to respond to it myself (still only half way through). I'd like to see an argument made in Marx's defense. I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that you said you could provide one, so you really should do it. Otherwise Vel's going to dance all over this and claim triumph and you're going to look silly.

	30-05-2005 08:10									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Kid, I'd really like to hear a response to that essay. I'm not sure how to respond to it myself (still only half way through). I'd like to see an argument made in Marx's defense. I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that you said you could provide one, so you really should do it. Otherwise Vel's going to dance all over this and claim triumph and you're going to look silly.

Sure. I have a headache tonight, but I'll try and get around to it tomorrow.

	30-05-2005 18:58									#450
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Ugh. This is very difficult because this person didn't include any text references.