18-05-2005 21:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We aren't going to have communism overnight, comrade. In fact, I'd argue that even if the revolution occurred tomorrow, we wouldn't live to see communism, at least not unless they disover the immortality cure.

What does that have to do with paying people for putting money in the bank even if its not needed. In the capitalist system savings is required for investment. In a planned economy you just have to plan investment and command the resources.

	18-05-2005 21:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's because there are no more or less necessary jobs. If I pick the oranges and you put them on the truck, both of our jobs are just as necessary.

I'd say being a doctor or a teacher is more important than being an orange picker (though in actuality, oranges aren't picked, they're shaken loose and fall into the trucks--I'm required to know this because I live in Florida).

	18-05-2005 21:24									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What does that have to do with paying people for putting money in the bank even if its not needed. In the capitalist system savings is required for investment. In a planned economy you just have to plan investment and command the resources.

Because it's not going to be a completely command economy right away. The market will still exist for some time. The working class needs expereince managing the economy before it can start changing it.

	18-05-2005 21:27									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'd say being a doctor or a teacher is more important than being an orange picker (though in actuality, oranges aren't picked, they're shaken loose and fall into the trucks--I'm required to know this because I live in Florida).

Not if you already have enough doctors and teachers. Then orange picker is more necessary. The only way to measure necessity is based on supply. There's no other way to say whether one profession is more necessary than the other, and I don't think they are. Doctors need to eat just like the orange picker needs to go to the doctor.

	18-05-2005 21:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because it's not going to be a completely command economy right away. The market will still exist for some time. The working class needs expereince managing the economy before it can start changing it.

Eh phooey. The market is going to colapse and command will be necessary. The biggest mistake we could ever make is going back to a free market. You aren't going to be able to make the command economy work unless you get in there and do it.

	18-05-2005 21:32									#36
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I'm not a maximalist. Lenin was correct, gradual is the way to go.

	18-05-2005 21:35									#37
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so what do you do with workers, such as myself, who refuse to give up my stuff to the commune/state?

	18-05-2005 21:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You're wrong. Your company/commune can very well decide to use a part of the profits for further investment, instead of redistributing all profit to the workers (similar to the way the company decides whether re-investing the profit or distributing it to the shareholders in current system). I'm also favourable to a banking system where you can put your savings, and have a modest real interest out of it. Finally, you can create your personal company with your savings, if you wish. However, once you have fellow workers in the company, you'll be equal to them in terms of power at the "board of directors".

Hmmm....let's see if I'm understanding now:

Implicit in the ability to decide to reinvest profits is the ability to decide not to, or some mix of the two. So, a successful company/commune can indeed make it's workers quite wealthy. Which is what I said in the first place.

Your banking system is interesting - is it just a half-way step like Che proposes? Because otherwise it seems like capitalism personified - making money solely off of lending (investing) capital.

And are all companies required to be partnerships? I can't see why anyone would be the only person to risk their savings when every other person working in the company has an equal say in how those savings are used.

	18-05-2005 21:39									#39
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We'll give you choices. You can emigrate. You can be ostracized. You can go to prison. Whatever. What do you do now when the capitalist state takes your stuff? You give in, cuz you don't want to go to prison. Why should it be different with us? But if you refuse to help maintain society, society has every right to refuse to let you partake of its benefits.

	18-05-2005 21:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki is it just a half-way step like Che proposes?

Remember that Spiffy and I don't agree on everything. I'd consider it a half-step.

	18-05-2005 21:48									#41
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Remember that Spiffy and I don't agree on everything. I'd consider it a half-step.

Which is probably why I asked him.

	18-05-2005 21:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Verres So called 'primitive' may be preferable if 'progression' has been in the wrong direction.

Progression has been towards the rule of law. Merely electing your dictators who are not bound by law is primitive by any measure.

	18-05-2005 21:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not sure that that's what Che is saying, but for me checks and balances are the most important part of any government.

What about the rule of law?

	18-05-2005 21:51									#44
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(Great, Lancer. You wound up the dynamic trio of Ned, Che, and Kid for yet another grudge match )

	18-05-2005 21:57									#45
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Japher, communists, socialists are trying to invent a form of society where economic outcomes are equal. That is the one common thing among them. But, as they try to invent their system, it becomes full of contradictions that are easily skewered by any half intelligent person.

But, what in my mind distinguishes communists from socialists is this issue of democracy. Communists are not democratic. A communist who says he is democratic either is a liar or a socialist in my book.

	18-05-2005 21:58									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Ok, I'm out the door. I expect complete agreement on the definition of comunism on my desktop by 6PM pacific time. That gives you almost 9 hours. Good luck.

Communists are like snowflakes... no two are alike .

	18-05-2005 21:59									#47
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You know, when you make comments like that, it's hard for me not to reply in kind.

	18-05-2005 21:59									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Communists are like snowflakes... no two are alike .

Speaking of communist snowflakes, where is she?

	18-05-2005 22:02									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What about the rule of law?

What about it? Are you saying the rule of law is not possible in a system of checks and balances?

	18-05-2005 22:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia so what do you do with workers, such as myself, who refuse to give up my stuff to the commune/state?

You don't have to give up your stuff to the commune/State. You work at a job, you get paid for it. In the case of communes, the management is acocuntable to you and your colleagues. In a statist scenario, the company is accountable to the State, which presumable serves the general interests of the population (which includes you)

	18-05-2005 22:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What about the rule of law?

It will still be there.

	18-05-2005 22:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not a maximalist. Lenin was correct, gradual is the way to go.

Remember that Lenin was talking about Russia, not a modern developed capitalist economy.

	18-05-2005 22:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Your banking system is interesting - is it just a half-way step like Che proposes? Because otherwise it seems like capitalism personified - making money solely off of lending (investing) capital.

It is capitalist, and I include interest for practical reasons. No matter what your economic system is, you need a supply of money if you want to invest in a productive fashion.
However, I consider the banking system as a utility, which should be a State monopoly. As such, the modest interest rate should bring only a little extra, unless you're exceptionally wealthy.
And since I'm all for a strong inheritance tax, there will be only a few people who'll amass such fabulous wealth in their lifetime. The few Bill Gates may live off interest, but it's a price I#m willing to pay if it means there is a steady source of capital for further productive investment.

quote: And are all companies required to be partnerships? I can't see why anyone would be the only person to risk their savings when every other person working in the company has an equal say in how those savings are used.

Me neither, which is the main reason why I favour a public banking system where it's actually interesting to save in. I think most new companies will start out as an individual venture, or as a small venture of several associates (like in today's world), and they're likely not to want to invest their own capital, but instead to have the company borrow at the State bank (unless the partners plan of remaining the only workers at their venture).
The State bank would provide cheap loans to companies that need capital (whether they be new or old), based on business models. The State bank, like all utilities, will not be in direct control of its workers, but of the State. Steps would be taken to avoid a single banker/bureaucrat from sealing the fate of a company.

	18-05-2005 22:22									#54
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communism = free beer

	18-05-2005 22:30									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer I always enjoyed the fact that communism eliminates corruption.

[Civ 2] It doesn't! If you get over 130 or so trade arrows in a city under communism, then you will lose one or two to corruption, but until that point, the percentage lost does not affect your trade arrows.
[/Civ 2]

	18-05-2005 22:46									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara communism = free beer

But the beer will probably end up being Budweiser or some **** .

	18-05-2005 22:47									#57
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You know, Budweiser is the most popular beer in the world.

	18-05-2005 22:53									#58
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Which is one of the arguments AGAINST democracy .

	18-05-2005 23:32									#59
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Well, you need a strong leader. Like Bush.

You need to be spreading the Revolution world-wide. Like Bush.

You need to control the media. Like Bush.

You need to establish prison camps. Like Bush.

You need to rail against a worldwide conspiracy seeking to undermine your Revolution. Like Bush.

Bush is the ultimate Communist.

	19-05-2005 00:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, I consider the banking system as a utility, which should be a State monopoly. As such, the modest interest rate should bring only a little extra, unless you're exceptionally wealthy.

You haven't explained why you need it. The govt can raise prices or just print more money.