19-05-2005 01:51									#31
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All the EU needs to decide is that groups they consider culturally unacceptable should be excluded then admite the eastern European countries with full rights amoung the poeple to move where they want to. Then you'll have all the culturally, religiously, and ethnically acceptable people you want.

I'm not sure this is the right policy but it would deal with the issue raised.

	19-05-2005 01:55									#32
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I realize they are Swedish-born children of immigrants. But I still don't see the SCB number of 300,000 making any kind of sense in the light of 1,1 mill. immigrants.

Now for the fertility rates of immigrants almost instantly dropping to a level near that of native Swedes, I don't see how you could conclude that from the graph you attached. The key is exactly that most immigrants are from countries with middle or low HDI (Human Development Index). That will mean Sweden will see a rapidly increasing number of immigrant descendants over the next generation, compared to the native population.

Here's what Caldwell said on the subject in the article (I really recommend you read it):

quote: Of 9 million Swedes, roughly 1,080,000 are foreign-born. There are between 800,000 and 900,000 children of immigrants, between 60,000 and 100,000 illegal immigrants, and 40,000 more asylum-seekers awaiting clearance. The percentage of foreign-born is roughly equivalent to the highest percentage of immigrants the United States ever had in its history (on the eve of World War I). But there are two big differences. First is that, given the age distribution of the native and foreign populations, the percentage of immigrants' offspring will skyrocket in the next generation, even if not a single new immigrant arrives, and even if immigrant fertility rates fall to native-born levels. But second, when America had the same percentage of foreign-born, many had arrived decades before, and were largely assimilated.

	19-05-2005 02:03									#33
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Winston, I have read that article before. On the same site where I found it, they also stated that Sweden had "ceded Malmö to the muslims", which was news to me. For your information, the vast majority of our immigrants come from countries with high HDI (former Yugoslavia etc) or medium HDI (middle-east in general). Those from the low HDI countries are a very small minority and it will take them several centuries to become a majority, unless they increase their fertility rates even more.

	19-05-2005 02:14									#34
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Fine, it's your problem, not mine. I can be just as happy no matter how many "centuries before they become a majority".

But given that they already represent 20% of your total population, that you add another 0.5%-points to that share each year from new arrivals alone, and that the immigrants are far more fertile overall than native Swedes (nobody would dispute that I think), maybe some of the people in charge of your affairs should start to take notice and not just pretend there isn't any problem at all.

BTW,

quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid On the same site where I found it, they also stated that Sweden had "ceded Malmö to the muslims", which was news to me.

I notice it was also "news to you" that there were a little bit more than 1-5% Muslims in your country, "depending on how you count".

	19-05-2005 03:57									#35
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PC crap.

Governments need to try to get immigrants to assimilate, I'm sorry if that might offend some people, but Europe is not the US. The US has much less of a problem with immigants because we are a nation of immigrants. Europe has much older cultures and ethnic groups.

	19-05-2005 05:18									#36
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Odin, right and for example Sweden has been rather homogenic for a long time, and then this happened quite rapidly BOOM and you got so much immigrants you have no control over nothing. I'm not talking about the problematic gangs and action, which still are done by minority naturally but they are being awfully loud, I'm talking about in general no control.

If you have.. I mean it's just not a good idea to let it happen too fast. It hinders integration and before you know it, you have a situation where your own culture is under the gun. That's not cultural richness. Cultural richness is when society has many cultures co-existing, and everyone has the opportunity to appreciate them all, experience it all in one country. But that's not what's happening, the 'racist' claim makes it so, and when people submit to that. Like I said. You won't have more cultural understanding by establishing schools for arabic only with logic it would be easier to learn sweden later on. First of all that's not even true, second of all, it's clearly a claim of parents etc who do not speak Swedish and don't want to speak Swedish and will never speak Swedish, it's just a part to create areas that you can have 100% working communities where no one else is allowed and you have your own little mini-iran or whatever, and there will be tensions between 'locals' and these isolated places.

There is a difference having community inside a community that prevails it's culture and richness of it (should be the case) and it's great. But this is not it, this is like the opposite of the good idea and results.

	21-05-2005 03:24									#37
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This thread is starting to sink a little too conveniently out of sight for my tastes.

So how will Sweden look in 10-15 years' time, compared to other European countries who are more restrictive to immigration (well, that's pretty much all of them), and who actually recognize that some efforts have to be made to try and integrate/assimilate immigrants into society? Will it "fall apart", and how will this affect neighbouring countries.

	21-05-2005 04:19									#38
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As I see it, the problem isn´t that we have too many immigrants. The problem is that unemployment rates are skyrocketing. But even if there were a lot of jobs, no one wants to hire arabs or somalians anyway. I don´t know what they think will happen if they do... In immigrant areas in the projects of Goteborg, Malmo and Stockholm unemployment rates are between 70-90% and only 30% of the population there can speak any swedish at all. It´s established fact that work leads to integration, and if there´s no work there´s no intergration. And then we get this kind of "us and them" thinking. No to mention the fact that these people become a tremendous strain on the welfare system. Thus perpetuating the predjudice that all they do is collect welfare and use the system to their own advantage...

	21-05-2005 04:36									#39
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Zoidberg, yeah exactly, that's what I mean with no control. If there's no control, suddenly the people get in fast like that, then these risks of not getting a job etc increases multiple times.

	21-05-2005 04:44									#40
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It´s a hard distinction between being humanitarian and seeing to your own. But seeing as Sweden isn´t a poor country (and neither is Denmark, Finland or Norway) we should be able to do our part.

	21-05-2005 05:11									#41
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Sure. Of course. But with reason and own interests in mind all the time. I mean, where's the logic in 'well we are going to open the borders 100% and let everyone in who wants to come and be eligible for welfare and we give them places to live in those and those regions and build them schools so they don't have to learn the language'. In the name of humanitarism? No no no... To do it with control means good for everyone, also the immigrants who come in. To have strains and stupid things means stress for everyone, these things do not help the immigrants in Malmö etc either. They are acting against their own best, the ones who do that stupid stuff.

	21-05-2005 17:40									#42
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Well, one solution for control would be to help people in their home countries. But since most of the immigrants (at least in Sweden) flee from war or persecution (political or religious) and a substantial amount come because their families are already here, it wouldn´t help. And IIRC Sweden already give more money in third world aid than any other country relative to our economy.

But another thing that really annoys me are that immigrants with degrees like doctors, nurses and the others aren´t allowed to work. And there´s a serious lack of especially medical staff in Sweden. If we accept the immigrants we must also put them to work when we need them! The truth is that swedish immigrant policy is both fickle and extremely racist.

	23-07-2005 07:48									#43
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*Bump*

	23-07-2005 08:16									#44
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Thread Necromancing:

	23-07-2005 08:24									#45
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It was by request.

I normally don't do requests. Unless people ask me...

	23-07-2005 13:53									#46
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Thanks Winston.

I have to check it later tonight, though (I'm off to visit my grandmother).

Carolus

	23-07-2005 14:06									#47
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You're welcome.

Grandmothers

	23-07-2005 18:47									#48
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IIRC, the largest single group of immigrants is still the Finns. They're hardly much of a cultural threat.

	23-07-2005 18:52									#49
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That's because Pekka is still in Finland.

	23-07-2005 18:53									#50
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With 2 million foreign born and descendants, I hardly think the Finns constitute the largest group.

But I agree they probably won't pose much of a problem, even with the knives and what not.

	23-07-2005 19:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Winston With 2 million foreign born and descendants, I hardly think the Finns constitute the largest group.

Too bad for you. The three most common countries of origin for foreign-born are, in falling order, Finland, Yugoslavia, and Iraq.

Linky

	23-07-2005 19:15									#52
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So be it.

Jedi.

But it's irrelevant anyway, since we all agree they aren't the ones causing trouble. After all, they are just Finns.

	24-07-2005 05:17									#53
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Well... What to say, what to say?

First, I haven't (yet) read all the nonsense that blogger is writing...

I just find this fear of Islam and "Islamisation" truly ridiculous... Citing what fundamentalists and zealots crave in response to someone "backtalking" their prophet and religion as a general tendency about how muslims think or behave...

The guy should read Islam A Short History by Karen Armstrong or a couple of Bernard Lewis' (former Princeton professor IIRC) books on the subject... The former is an informative description of its history; Lewis' (more recent) books deal with current affairs and problematise more...

Fundamentalist groups in power (ab)using religious sources to justify and implement their political/religious agenda i) is nothing new ii) is not unique for islam and iii) does not necessarily represent the will of most people in that country in general...

I've met 3 muslims that I've got to know pretty well. The first was in the PhD program; he was (is) a kurd that escaped from Iran... Yes, I had problems with quite a lot of his views (womens' role, homosexuality, and even masturbation, which was a sin to him... )...

To me he was disturbingly conservative and unforgiving (he once told me he would denounce his own children if they turned out to be homosexual )... We still got along, often discussed our differences, and shot a lot of pool together...

Value-wise we didn't have much in common and he wasn't a close friend, but we can still live together in the same country... Only a hundred years ago those same values permeated Sweden, and I'm pretty sure there were not many muslims here then... People and societies evolve, and they will continue to do so given the chance... If it's not the current generation, it'll be the next and so on...

The two other muslims I know are guys I met in Geneva. We lived in the same dorm... One is from Marocco and also has some (to me) dubious views on womens' sexuality... Also, he doesn't drink alcohol (which to a nordic person is quite suspect... ). He is a really funny guy, though, with a lot of humour and charm... The ladies really liked him!

The other is from Turkey and is one of the nicest persons I've ever met... To my surprise (and against my prejudices), he's completely "european"... Ok, he didn't eat during the day when it was Ramadam, but that was only to keep our north-african friend company during the night... Plus, he drank alcohol... BTW, the three of us also shot some pool together... Seriously, those guys were (are) fun company!

On the other hand, at the same dorm there was this swiss guy... Almost as conservative as my Iranian friend in the PhD program (he's from one of the most conservative cantons in Switzerland...)... He'd been in Sweden and studied a year, spoke swedish impressively well...

We had almost nothing in common and even less to say to each other... IMO he was a self-righteous and introvert person with no curiousity whatsoever about new phenomena in society... All he wanted was "things" to go back like they "used to be"... We never shot pool together...

Bottom-line: religion or race is not an issue as long as you can shoot a lot of pool together!

It is true that swedish integration policy has failed to some extent... I think the obvious symptom is the disproportional high unemployment rates among immigrants (and the ghetto-like areas we see in, for example, Malmö)... I think there are many reasons for this:

i) the language

Swedish isn't a global language (duh!) and admittedly difficult to learn. Without it, it's difficult to enter the (qualified) labour market

ii) the different economic conditions today

The time from the end of World War II until the late 1960s/early 1970's is known as the Golden Age. The economy was up, unemployment was low and there was excess demand for labour, satisfied by a "labour force immigrant wave" (mainly Yugoslavians and Finns).

Heck, you just presented yourself at the factory gates (or office doors) asking for a job and you were in! Today, the situation is quite different. Even for native Swedes with academic degrees, the labour market is a harsh mistress... Unemployment is (IIRC) about 8 percent (or around there somewhere), a record high for a country used to 2-3 percent...

iii) racism

Investigating journalists have applied for jobs using their real (foreign) names in one application for a job and using (made up) typical swedish names in another (for the same job; also when applying for different jobs). Yes, you guessed it: it was far more likely that they got contacted when they claimed to be a Svensson rather than an Al-Jahab...

Devising and implementing "good" policies to help people adapt to a new society with a completely different set of values is tricky business... So far, Sweden hasn't risen to the challenge... Narrow-mindedness will not make it any easier...

Carolus

Last edited by Carolus Rex on 24-07-2005 at 06:12

	24-07-2005 05:30									#54
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Phew; it's in!

Just when I posted, my Mozilla Firefox crashed on me... I didn't copy the text first... Took a little while to write it; not sure I would rewrite it had I lost it...

But then again, nobody will read it anyway, so what's the difference!

Carolus

	24-07-2005 05:38									#55
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that thing about the nice going but conservative guy reminded me of an antente i had with an albanian guy. we were both students abroad. so i didnt know he was albanian, he was just the new kid in class. so he intriduced him as albanian and i immideatly said, hey i'm greek! (you know balkanian comradery). so he said cool and we went for a cup of coffee. after making his complaints (justified) about some cases of mal treatment of albanian immigrants in greece and me telling him it was the same long ago when greeks went to germany we were really hitting it off. so he told me about simitis (then PM of greece) and how much he admired him and that he was certain he's good for greek albanian relationship. and i said cool (surprised he even knew who the greek pm was). then we talked abut all that stupid stuff that went on in the balkans at that time and it was really great. i was thinking, we're all the same people, so i threw on the table the idea that someday we should all integrate and get those bastard westerners off all our businesses and properties something to which he compltetly agreed to. and just as i was happy and glad and we were ready to start planning the albaniangreek integration he comes up and says something stupid like "do you see all those women here? western women they dress like sluts. the correct place for a woman is the kitchen". when i was satisfied that he wasnt actually joking but he really meant it, i had to cancel the integration.

	24-07-2005 05:39									#56
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I was under the impression Scandinavia was one of the whitest, most homogenous places on earth. A little color got y'all scared?

	24-07-2005 05:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I was under the impression Scandinavia was one of the whitest, most homogenous places on earth.

We used to be, but things have been changing rapidly in recent decades. Of the five people I work closest with, three are dark-skinned; unrepresentative, but telling.

	24-07-2005 06:01									#58
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Nah, you don't get free that easy.

I don't buy your pow's on racism. That is I guess that you may be righ, but it is not different from a jutland company denying hiring a zealander.

Any company in need of workers will hire what they can get - they would be stupid if they didn't.

	24-07-2005 06:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I was under the impression Scandinavia was one of the whitest, most homogenous places on earth. A little color got y'all scared?

Well... I thought (hoped) my post would reveal that not everyone agrees with that blogger's views...

Homogeneity and Scandinavia (Sweden, Norway, Denmark) is interesting... I think Finland and Iceland are the most homogeneous by far of the nordic countries...

Despite 1 of 10 being born abroad, my impression is that Sweden is still quite homogeneous... Of course, it's not like in the 1950s and 1960s, but...

Still, the concept (homogeneity) is strange to say the least... It implies that there is some genuine, true, one and only ethnic group that everyone else stems from (at least if you're a "real" swede)... A common (mis)conception among neo-nazis and racists, I believe...

Carolus

	24-07-2005 06:09									#60
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I don't buy your pow's on racism. That is I guess that you may be righ, but it is not different from a jutland company denying hiring a zealander.

You've been drinking again?

Yeah, that was just a couple of reporters doing an unscientific investigation... Don't know how general their "results" are, but I'm too much of a cynic to believe they were isolated incidents...

Carolus