18-05-2005 20:54									#1
	Chitter AI. Tired of ads?

I wonder... CIV is known for its chitter AI. Perhaps in Regent it was not cheater, i doubt it, but... as now 'luxury' will be called 'culture' and if you increase your founds to culture, that will make your dudes more happy and if a nation is happy and other opressed, is natural that the other nation will wish to join your empire in the form of deflecting cities.

So, my point is that the player will have to diverce resources (aka gold) to strengthen the borders of the empire, BUT, will the AI do the same, i mean, will the AI actually 'invest' money in culture and not in sience or taxes and if it does, will it actually 'diverge' money or a common AI cheat will be to start with a +1 or +2 in culture slider, without actually investing a dime.

What do you think?

	18-05-2005 21:44									#2
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 So, my point is that the player will have to diverce resources (aka gold) to strengthen the borders of the empire, BUT, will the AI do the same, i mean, will the AI actually 'invest' money in culture and not in sience or taxes and if it does, will it actually 'diverge' money or a common AI cheat will be to start with a +1 or +2 in culture slider, without actually investing a dime.

It's possible that such a bonues would be given to the AI at higher levels, while a similar bonus could be given to the player at a lower level.

	18-05-2005 21:56									#3
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Each version of Civ has progressively cheated less.

In part because of human counter tactics that make the AIs cheat really a human exploit.

Cheat: In Civ I, AI was peroidcally granted a wonder.
Human counter: Don't build most wonders, instead wait for the AI to be granted it and then capture the city and wonder from them.

Cheat: In Civ II, AI always knows which cities have units and which don't and will only nuke cities with units.
Human counter: If the AI has nukes, move all units outside that city.

Cheat: In Civ III, AI has full knowelge of all tiles within it's version of the world map [including units & future resources]
Human counters:
1. Upon seeing an AI settler pair wondering thru tundra or desert, instead of blocking it or attacking it immedately, wait for it to found a city, and then attack. This will ensure you know which area to expect oil.
2. Use of your military deployment patterns to steer the AI into killing fields / lure them aware from vulerable cities / set up of mobile walls to prevent settler passage.

	19-05-2005 01:33									#4
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Humans always cheat more than the AI.

1. Restarts
2. Reloads
3. Exploits
4. Mods

In a parallel universe somewhere the computers are the ones that play the games and we are the toys. They get together and complain bitterly about our total lack of logic and consistency.

	19-05-2005 03:53									#5
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I dont restart! I dont cheat! So i expect the AI not cheat. Come on, the game looks so kewl and seems to be so perfect, dont blow it up with a chitter AI.

	19-05-2005 04:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 I dont restart! I dont cheat! So i expect the AI not cheat. Come on, the game looks so kewl and seems to be so perfect, dont blow it up with a chitter AI.

Play at the difficulty level that grants no bonuses to the AI then.

	19-05-2005 08:21									#7
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But the AI know stuff in advance regardless the level, doesnt it?

	19-05-2005 08:25									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 But the AI know stuff in advance regardless the level, doesnt it?

I don't know how it will be in Civ4.

The bonuses you mentioned in the opening post, however, is typically a thing you won't face at the non-cheat level.

	19-05-2005 09:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Humans always cheat more than the AI. 1. Restarts 2. Reloads 3. Exploits 4. Mods

Restart - not a cheat. You play games to have fun, right? So why stick it out when you are losing with no hope to gain a better position?

Reloads - can be a cheat, but this is mainly done as a defense against various silliness, such as your battleship gets killed by a militia.

Mods - I guess if you modify the characteristics of units and other things enough the computer players won't know how to use them. However this is a problem with the way AI is programmed, not an intrinsic problem with mods.

	19-05-2005 13:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Reloads - can be a cheat, but this is mainly done as a defense against various silliness, such as your battleship gets killed by a militia.

Do you reload when one of those freak results goes in your favour - when it's your spearman killing a tank?

	19-05-2005 13:54									#11
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Stopped reloading long ago. Made no sense anyway due to the "Preserve Random Seed" option. Made even less sense with the numbers of units moving around at the levels I play.

As to mods, last time I had an epic game that was not PBEM, I used the AU Mod. That mod actually improves the AI...

I admit to restarting the game until I get a start I like. Be it a nice one or a difficult one (depends on the mood ).

	19-05-2005 13:56									#12
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Please let the AI cheat in the heighest levels!
Otherwise it would be too easy. If you don't want the AI to cheat, just pick the middle-lever. (regent or whatever it may be in cIV)

	19-05-2005 14:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Please let the AI cheat in the heighest levels!

Please make the AI better at the highest difficulty levels. I believe that is the real goal. Cheating is only there because the designers could not make the AI clever.

	19-05-2005 14:18									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner They get together and complain bitterly about our total lack of logic and consistency.

Which is why we'll always beat them.

	19-05-2005 14:18									#15
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quote: @joncnunn:Upon seeing an AI settler pair wondering thru tundra or desert, instead of blocking it or attacking it immedately, wait for it to found a city, and then attack. This will ensure you know which area to expect oil.

Am I the only one suprised here? This is the first time I heard that, and I must say that makes perfect sense. Thanks joncnunn, you certainly are a wealth of information. I'll be watching those settlers a little more closely.

	19-05-2005 14:42									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Please make the AI better at the highest difficulty levels. I believe that is the real goal. Cheating is only there because the designers could not make the AI clever.

of course, first make it better!
if you can't make it good enough (which will not be possible if you want to finish the game in the next 15 years) fix the holes with cheating.

	19-05-2005 16:30									#17
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Sure. And one of the easiest things to fix is this problem:

quote: Upon seeing an AI settler pair wondering thru tundra or desert, instead of blocking it or attacking it immedately, wait for it to found a city, and then attack. This will ensure you know which area to expect oil.

How hard can it be to actually make unknown resources invisible to the AI

	19-05-2005 16:47									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

doesn't sound that hard in my humble opinion.....
I wonder, is it purposed cheating (ie. only in king and heigher) or is it cheating that happens in all levels?

	19-05-2005 18:15									#19
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I always play out a game, even when I am badly losing-just because I enjoy the process of PLAYING the game-rather than winning. Of course, I DO tend to give up by the modern age, but thats usually due to micromanagment issues (the Modern Age Malaise, as I call it).
I have noticed myself reloading games more often though-much to my disappointment-but usually only after the AI gets a MASSIVE run of luck in combat.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	19-05-2005 18:39									#20
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Here's the parallel universe: "If the AI were human"

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=120799

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Humans always cheat more than the AI. 1. Restarts 2. Reloads 3. Exploits 4. Mods In a parallel universe somewhere the computers are the ones that play the games and we are the toys. They get together and complain bitterly about our total lack of logic and consistency.

	19-05-2005 18:45									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

CyberShy, there's a difference between "cheat" and "handicap"

I expect that Civ IV will continue to have various levels of handicaps.

The handicaps in Civ III are:

production advantage / disadvantage
extra units starting on Monarch
extra free unit support starting on Monarch
science advantage / disadvantage

The cheats in Civ III are

AI Trade Bonus
Full knowlege of their discovered portion of the map [except it's so badly used by the AI]

Handcaps are good, and pre-date computer games.

Golf [adjustment to score], Chess [one side down a piece or pieces]

Cheats are bad

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Please let the AI cheat in the heighest levels! Otherwise it would be too easy. If you don't want the AI to cheat, just pick the middle-lever. (regent or whatever it may be in cIV)

	19-05-2005 18:57									#22
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Adagio, it's extremely easy, in fact many SSI games of the last 80s and early 90s featured AI always operates with "fog of war" on even if the human turns it off. Making "fog of war" off a human cheat.

quote: Originally posted by Adagio Sure. And one of the easiest things to fix is this problem: quote: Upon seeing an AI settler pair wondering thru tundra or desert, instead of blocking it or attacking it immedately, wait for it to found a city, and then attack. This will ensure you know which area to expect oil. How hard can it be to actually make unknown resources invisible to the AI

	19-05-2005 19:02									#23
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That could be in part because you are overestimating your odds of victory.

On feature that I miss the most from SMAC is the display the odds when attempting to attack option before commiting. (Default was off, but you could turn this on.)
In addition, by default, you'd get a warning if your odds of a successful attack were really bad.

Remember that defensive units get terraign defense bonsus. Those fortified get fortifaction defense bonus. Those in size 7-12 cities effectively get the walls defense bonsus. Those in size 1+ cities effective get double the walls defense bonsus. And all the bonsuses are cumulative.

quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker I have noticed myself reloading games more often though-much to my disappointment-but usually only after the AI gets a MASSIVE run of luck in combat. Yours, Aussie_Lurker.

	19-05-2005 20:22									#24
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Great link Jon. Pretty funny!

	19-05-2005 22:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner In a parallel universe somewhere the computers are the ones that play the games and we are the toys. They get together and complain bitterly about our total lack of logic and consistency.

If the AI played like a human, there'd still be people complaining about how the AI isn't consistent or predictable. I mean, people keep complaining about the AI attacking when 'polite' or attacking for no apparent reason. Imagine the complaints if it was even more unpredictable.

	20-05-2005 08:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon If the AI played like a human, there'd still be people complaining about how the AI isn't consistent or predictable. I mean, people keep complaining about the AI attacking when 'polite' or attacking for no apparent reason. Imagine the complaints if it was even more unpredictable.

A primary way to avoid AI predictability would be to make such decisions just a weighted random choice.

Instead of
"If (A) Then (B)"
have it
"If (A) Then 80% (B)
Else (C)"

	20-05-2005 14:33									#27
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i think Soren has said elsewhere that most AI cheats end up being counterproductive in the long run. Stuff like the level-based production bonuses are unavoidable, and necessary, so they're staying. But in a game like civ, which gets analysed to death, and being turn-based, we have the time to study everything if we want to, AI cheats (like knowing the location of resources, or which cities are undefended) become known fairly quickly. And the vast majority of the time, they end up becoming a liability to the AI rather than a help. In Civ3 there have been various tricks for persuading the AI to run backwards and forwards between empty cities so that it delays an actual attack indefinitely. There is knowing resources, which ultimately lets the player know where resources are (such as seeing which of those crap cities the AI will give up for peace), which leads to the AI losing them more quickly than if it never knew they were there in the first place.

Then there are the terminally annoying cheats, such as the trading techs during the players turn (which was patched out due to being too annoying). Or, from civ2, stealing a tech (such as flight) with a spy, and then during the same turn attacking with bombers (which it would have been impossible to build). Obvious cheats like that just annoy players.

But given the potential for any cheats to be exploited by players, I'd be surprised if the AI advantage went beyond the entirely customisable production / research bonuses and penalties (and maybe the extra happiness, unit support, free units, which don't have anything to do with AI behaviour as such).

	21-05-2005 22:44									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

One cheat I would like to see implemented for the AI is to load up their transports to the max. Just put the units on a transport even if they don't have enough movement to actually get there.

	21-05-2005 22:59									#29
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playshogi, imagine the complaints the first time someone sees an AI unit sudenly transport from one tile he sees to a boat on another tile he sees.

Or the complaints the first time it's obvious that a unit was created by magic on a transport.

	22-05-2005 00:35									#30
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the main point of the ai is to be so fun and at least a bit good enough not to need cheats.playing civ3 on sid,that just wasnt playing the same game as the ai frankly