21-05-2005 07:00									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What I've been seeing on TV is that 6 Republicans would have to side with Democrats to block this and right now 2-8 are talking like they're going to do it. That's what has got Frist into a tizzy; that some of his people aren't as partisan or extremist as Frisk would like/

	24-05-2005 05:55									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

Looks like a "compromise" has been reached. The GOP gets what it wants. Now we can move on to other useless topics.

quote: Senators Reach Deal on Filibuster Small Group Reports Compromise To Avoid Showdown Over Judicial Nominees By William Branigin and Dan Balz Washington Post Staff Writers Monday, May 23, 2005; 8:23 PM Fourteen Republican and Democratic senators announced this evening they had reached a compromise designed to prevent a showdown over President Bush's judicial nominations. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), speaking for the group of seven Republicans and seven Democrats, announced the agreement at a news conference at 7:40 p.m. Under the deal, the Democrats agreed to accept cloture votes on three of President Bush's judicial nominees: Priscilla R. Owen, Janice Rogers Brown and William Pryor. In return, the Republicans pledged not to support the so-called "nuclear option" to end the ability of the minority to use filibusters to block nominees. The group of senators, including Democrats Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Robert Byrd of West Virginia, said the Senate leadership had signaled it would go along with the compromise. The Democrats made no commitments regarding two other conservative judicial nominees, Henry Saad and William Myers. "In a Senate that is increasingly polarized, the bipartisan center held," said Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.). "The Senate is back in business," echoed Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C. Word of the agreement came after leaders of both parties indicated they expected the dispute to come to a head tomorrow, and Bush reiterated his insistence on "an up-or-down vote" for his nominees. Earlier in the day, as senators trooped to the floor for a fourth day of speeches for and against Bush's choice of Owen for a federal appeals judgeship, negotiators convened in McCain's office in the last-ditch effort to work out a compromise that would avert the so-called nuclear option maneuver. Without the compromise, it had been expected that the leadership of the majority Republicans would move tomorrow to effectively end the minority Democrats' ability to use filibusters to block judicial nominees. If that step were taken, Democrats have warned, they would shut down most business in a chamber that operates largely by unanimous consent. A vote on a motion to cut off debate had been scheduled to be held about noon tomorrow, Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) announced. If at least 60 of the Senate's 100 members voted for cloture, the body could then proceed to a vote on Owen. If not, Frist planned to make a point of order that debate on a judicial nominee should be limited and ask Vice President Cheney, as the presiding officer of the Senate, for a ruling. That would lead to a vote that, if Frist prevailed, would effectively set a new precedent by requiring a simple majority, instead of 60 votes, to end judicial filibusters. This would also circumvent the Senate requirement of a two-thirds vote -- 67 senators -- to change the body's rules. In a floor speech this morning, Frist said that "cloture would yield a fair up-or-down vote." He said that "the American people expect us to act" on nominees and described the choice as being between "judicial obstruction or fair up-or-down votes." Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) asserted that Owen has already had at least three votes on the Senate floor. He said the votes were on "whether or not we should stop debating her" and that three times the answer has been no. Later, Reid was asked about the prospects of a compromise before tomorrow's vote. "Well, I would hope that something can still be worked out," he told reporters. "But I think each day that goes by, the possibility's less. I think the odds of something being worked out now are very, very remote." In an appearance at the White House with the visiting Afghan president this morning, Bush rejected Democrats' efforts to prevent his nominees from receiving a vote by the full Senate. He said he has chosen nominees who "will bring great credit to the bench" and that he has been "consistent with judicial philosophy in my picks." Bush added, "And I expect them to get an up-or-down vote. That's what I expect. And I think the American people expect that, as well. People ought to have a fair hearing, and they ought to get an up-or-down vote on the floor." During today's floor debate, Byrd of West Virginia implored fellow senators to "step back from the precipice" and refrain from triggering the nuclear option. "I'm deeply troubled," he said. "I'm almost sick about it." Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-Del.) charged that "the extreme right of the Republican Party is attempting to hijack the federal courts." But Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Tex.) argued that Republicans are only trying to restore the traditional requirement of a simple-majority vote for the confirmation of judges. "No one on our side of the aisle has even suggested that minority rights be overrun," she said.

	24-05-2005 06:08									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I really don't understand the logic behind the Democrats in this. If the filibuster is only to be used in extreme circumstances, what, pray tell, do we have now? I really think that 10 out of 215 can be extreme circumstances. And the compromise was worded in such a way as to allow Republicans to vote against the filibuster if they feel that the circumstances are not extreme enough: ie, the same debate will occur over Bush's supreme court nomination.

In the end, the two judges that the Democrats are not confirming have gotten almost no media attention. Certainly Owen and Brown, the focus of the Democratic activists, are both getting confirmed. DanS is, sadly, correct, and this, all for the dubious ability to filibuster the supreme court is certainly not a victory for the Democrats. The only real consolation is that it is not a victory for Frist either, and his presidential campaign will be the harder because of this.

	24-05-2005 06:14									#65
	Got spare money?

So neither side wins? Seems like the best possible solution to me...

	24-05-2005 06:29									#66
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The GOP wins, but not much. It gets its judicial nominees through. It makes the Dem leadership look a little weak in front of its supporters. About as well as the Dem rank and file could have expected, considering the silliness of the strategy in the first place.

	24-05-2005 06:33									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually, I think the Dems came out a bit ahead. They didn't have the votes to stop the nuclear option, but they managed to escape by only having to allow votes on three appointments. Pretty even compromise all in all, though...

	24-05-2005 06:39									#68
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Frist is the loser, actually. Dobson et al are furious, he looks politically weak because he was clearly unable to get the commitment of the votes they needed to pass it. If they had had the votes, he would have hit the button.

The Dems come out ahead since they were they first to offer compromise, and Frist flat-out rejected it. Now he's essentially caved to that offer.

Score another for Reid.

	24-05-2005 06:41									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, we won't be having any filibusters for Bush's Supreme Court nominees because it's now pretty much settled. If you want to view that as a Dem victory, then you are welcome to that view. But I don't share it.

	24-05-2005 06:47									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Well, we won't be having any filibusters for Bush's Supreme Court nominees because it's now pretty much settled.

Where do you get that idea? The Dems haven't lost the ability to filibuster...

	24-05-2005 06:53									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They haven't lost the ability to filibuster, but they've lost effective use of the filibuster, except in "extraordinary circumstances." This is a high bar. They might be able to use it on one or two occassions during a two term presidency.

	24-05-2005 06:56									#72
	Remove this text

Come on. We both know that the Dems will consider any attempt to put a legitimate conservative on the Supreme Court to be "extraordinary circumstances." This issue isn't dead, IMO.

	24-05-2005 06:58									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't think it will fly. Those 7 dems will vote for cloture. They've given their word.

	24-05-2005 06:59									#74
	Got spare money?

I don't trust the word of any politician.

	24-05-2005 07:05									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

That may be true, but these guys have to work with one another all the time. 6 year terms, etc. Oddly, I think there is at least some small sense of honor in the institution, if only because absolutely nothing can be done in the Senate unless the vast majority of Senators allow it.

	24-05-2005 07:10									#76
	Tired of ads?

The only reason this compromise occurred at all was to allow for filibustering supreme court nominees. Both sides know this, and both sides expect a filibuster if Bush doesn't appoint a moderate. However, in response to Boris, while Frist loses, the Republican party wins. This is not a good compromise for Reid.

	24-05-2005 07:16									#77
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Admiral However, in response to Boris, while Frist loses, the Republican party wins. This is not a good compromise for Reid.

Disagree. Politically, it looks like a win for the Democrats. If Frist had the votes, he would have done the deed. He didn't, so he caved. This means that Reid and the Democrats have successfully outmanuevered him. Just look at the two on the floor of the Senate: Frist looked despondent, Reid had a huge smile on his face.

It also means that James Dobson won't be picking the next SCOTUS justice. If it ain't a moderate, the Dems will indeed filibuster.

Oh, and I love the latest gallup numbers:

"Do you think the country would be better off if the Republicans controlled Congress, or if the Democrats controlled Congress?"

Republicans 36% (41%)
Democrats 47% (45%)

This is after a week of nothing but the nuclear option being in congressional news. I'd say the Dems have successfully portrayed it as a naked GOP power grab.

	24-05-2005 07:27									#78
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The problem is that both Owen and Brown get confirmed. These two nominees have been the focus of such an effort on the left that both of their passages will make us look week. If these were the two that would not go through, I'd be much happier with the compromise.

	24-05-2005 07:46									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This compromise has the rare property of outraging both freerepublic.com and democraticunderground.com who have both accused their respective sides of selling out.

This has to be a relief for Bush and Frist in a way. This move for the nuclear option was decidedly unpopular politically, and they stood take a big hit if they went through with the nuclear option. This should relieve the political damage from this, while allowing them to blame the moderates to avoid excessive damage from the GOP base. This presents a real problem. The Moderates who were pushing this deal have an opportuntity to look good and should be helped in any of their re-election bids in a general election, althought the Republians who did this will probably risk a primary. Any of the Republican moderates who favored this deal may have dealt quite a blow to any of their Presidential aspiration, as this will definitely hurt them in a Presidential primary.

As for procedural matters, we'll see how this turns out, and we'll see how "extraordinary" gets interpreted by the Democratic moderates, and then how the GOP reacts to that. Will the Democrats count being opposed to Roe v. Wade as "extraordinary", or will it be saved for true extremists? Time will tell here.

	24-05-2005 08:04									#80
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, we won't be having any filibusters for Bush's Supreme Court nominees because it's now pretty much settled. If you want to view that as a Dem victory, then you are welcome to that view. But I don't share it.

Why wouldn't they filibuster Supreme Court nominees? This has been a bad PR issue for the Republicans. If this same situation happens with a SC nomination, it'll be higher profile, and likely worse for the republicans.

	24-05-2005 08:25									#81
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Edan Why wouldn't they filibuster Supreme Court nominees? This has been a bad PR issue for the Republicans. If this same situation happens with a SC nomination, it'll be higher profile, and likely worse for the republicans.

Actually, a poll they did awhile back showed more Americans wanted conservative juidical nominees then lbieral ones. They just didn't want the filibuster overturned to do it.

When it comes time to confirm nominees, the Democrats will have to decide if they want to try to filibuster. If they do, it'll be up the GOP moderates to decide if the proposed candidate fit under the "extraordinary circumstances" provision- they will be under considerable pressure from their own party to say that it isn't and the Dems broke the deal. If that happens, the GOP can then use the nuclear option. The GOP is still in a better position then they are now, since then the court of public opinion would be judging on who broke the deal rather then the already unpopular nuclear option.

If Bush is smart, what he should do is simply ask to put forward nominees that were previously conifrmed, perhaps judges put forward through this dean such as Owens. The Democrats would be in a difficult position to backtrack on a judge not being extraorindary then but being so now.

The SCOTUS nomination, if it comes up, will be the big battle. Whoever wins gets great credibility with their base, whoever loses faces their bases wrath.

	24-05-2005 08:44									#82
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: This compromise has the rare property of outraging both freerepublic.com and democraticunderground.com who have both accused their respective sides of selling out.

In that case, I'd have to give the compromise an enthusiastic thumbs up, anything that drives Freepers and DU nuts has to be good...

	24-05-2005 20:05									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Republican wimps!

	24-05-2005 20:22									#84
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Actually, a poll they did awhile back showed more Americans wanted conservative juidical nominees then lbieral ones.

Thanks for the false dichotomy, but most Americans want moderate judges. This isn't an issue of conservative vs. liberal judge options, this is about extremely right-wing judges vs. more sensible conservative judges. If the Dems were holding out for liberal judges, none of Bush's nominees would have gotten through. As is, they approved all but 10.

So that's why the American people agree with the Democrats more on this issue: the Dems are the ones advocating moderate judges.