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kobayashi
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Singapore
Dec 2000
time: 13:21
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GO HERE TO DOWNLOAD FILES
Comments are welcome.
Some advice. The game starts in Jan 1937 and no doubt some of you (the kill kill kill players) will immediately proceed to attack the Allies immediately. Let me say here that the only way to win is to wait till everything is prepositioned and execute an almost simultaneous attack on all the objective cities within the span of a 18 months or so. So play strategically.
Last edited by kobayashi on 09-06-2005 at 20:22
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kobayashi
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Singapore
Dec 2000
time: 13:21
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Finally got to play a game in its entirety myself without making any changes halfway.
Here I am in late 44 getting kicked out of Indochina. Already lost Haiphong and Bangkok and never made it to Mandalay to cut the Burma Road. Earlier I made the mistake of going straight for Rangoon without going down the Malayan Peninsula first.
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Last edited by kobayashi on 22-05-2005 at 16:10
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kobayashi
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Singapore
Dec 2000
time: 13:21
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And further south, never managed to get to Port Moresby and didn't managed to ship enough troops down to lock down captured cities, had to rely on air units for garrison. US marines are landing everywhere and I've lost most of my capital ships to attrition while attempting to sweep westward across the Indonesian islands.
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Last edited by kobayashi on 22-05-2005 at 16:09
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:21
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Congratulations on turning out a very intricately plotted scenario. Prior to attempting to play it, I've looked it over carefully and come up with some general comments.
A. It appears that the scenario plays at a very slow pace. Both naval and ground units seem to be extremely slow moving. For example, Japanese ships start off with Mv=5 or 6 but that drops to 3 or 4 when the Long Lance Torpedo wonder expires, probably in 1942. In practical terms, the fleet will become almost immobile and much too slow to respond to enemy forces that suddenly appear. It will take 8 months just to move a BB from Nagasaki to Singapore and 10 months to move a Freighter.
B. Another puzzling item with naval units is why everybody's cruisers as well as modern US and British BB's can attack aircraft in flight but Yamato class BB's cannot.
C. To somewhat fix what I perceive to be a very slow moving scenario, I have made the following mods that affect ground units:
- The road from Sapporo to Nagasaki has been replaced by a RR that bypasses both Japanese (P) cities. In my judgement, it should not take 7 months to move an Artillery unit a distance of less than 1500 km from one end of the Home Islands to the other.
- I've added a RR from Pusan to Harbin because such a RR existed in 1937. I have added no RR's in enemy territory on the assumption that they will have been pillaged before the Japanese can capture them.
- The road multiplier has been increased to 5 just to speed things up a bit. I'm wondering what to do about the apparent inconsistency of Japanese tanks which can move 1 square while footslogging Imperial Marines can move 2 (this is also true for the other civs).
D. No enemy city has fortifications (city walls). This is certain to cause some interesting problems if Japanese attacks have to be made from land squares. The razing of a number of Chinese and other landlocked cities appears inevitable. This would be no problem if the Japanese could have more than one settler who can rebuild missing road sections. However, with a single slow-moving unit, it's going to be difficult to rebuild roads. It seems a bit odd and pointless that a nation of 80 million has to manage with a single such unit.
E. When a Resource at full strength attacks one of the Japanese (P) cities, the defending Flak seems to suffer about 50% damage. This means that the defender can be accidentally killed unless a player ensures that the Resource attacks at less than full strength.
The strategy that I’m going to use is:
1. Disband Infantry, Jeans, Claudes, Destroyers and Cruisers to RB the Bettys, Artillery and Zeros needed to capture all Barbarian cities and overwhelm the Chinese civ as quickly as possible.
2. Max out Research to get the Betty and Zero techs within 8 months.
3. Set up the presently Barb cities of Bangkok as the staging point for attacks on Malaysia and Burma and Munda for an attack on New Guinea and Australia.
4. Disband all older BB’s to IRB Yamatos when the latter become available. There is no point in fighting with obsolescent units which have a high likelihood of being sunk. Although they will be too slow to chase after enemy naval units, the Yamatos might do some good in defending cities with dockyards.
5. The inevitable loss of the Long Lance Torpedo wonder will have the result that, excepting Yamatos and subs for local defence, the scen will be played primarily with air units except in India and Australia.
DST looks like fun with lots of scope for innovative play. 
I’ll let you know how it turns out.
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kobayashi
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Singapore
Dec 2000
time: 13:21
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Reply to Agricola, who I am very grateful for his comments -
Eivind made a point about the slowness of ships in the beta and the release version already has ship movements upped by one. I'm aware of the 'takes how long to travel from where to where’ point of view and did consider adding more move allowance to the ships but decided against it. This is really just part of the long-standing micro-accuracy verses macro representation argument.
I suppose if each turn were a day we could have ‘realistic’ ship movements. But each turn is a month and giving them the accurate range makes interception at sea impossible. Now if you bumped into an enemy ship and they could fire at you before you moved the next step, well that’s another matter but they can’t. Also, ships become invulnerable to air attack since they can zip from port to port without ever being seen. The same argument can be made for aircraft – i.e. how come they can only fly one sortie every two months? The answer is, the game is not meant to be (and could never be anyway) totally accurate at the micro level, just representative. Ships need to travel in zig-zag patterns, wait for orders, stop for repairs, rendezvous with supply ships and subs, slow down in bad weather, whatever. I also need to take into consideration how many times a BB can attack in one turn and make sure a BB cannot zoom past any aircraft screen and sink carriers at will. Also, the neutralization of Long Lance needs to have a strong impact. In any case, the reality is there were only a few major naval battles and the game is representative of this.
Attacking aircraft is a power granted to AI ships to prevent air-ship stacking by the human. It is not entirely accurate but the best compromise.
Railroad is ok I suppose if limited to the locations you suggested. Increasing the road multiplier is a viable modification too. Will look into both for the next release. BTW, tanks can move three, not one as they have AllasRoad. At the time in Asia, men (either on truck/bicycle) could probably move faster and further than tanks.
There is little need for city walls in China at the start. I would hazard to say that they probably weren't prepared for all out war in 37. I didn't even come close to razing any cities in China in my games. That is more likely in the East Indies and Indochina. The Chinese don't have that many troops to start off with and they very quickly build up walls by themselves.
To summarize, if you could just play the scenario as it is without worrying about the micro-accuracy, your comments might be different at the end of the day, then again maybe not. I don't think your strategy will work out well....as you will see. No point spoiling the game for you.
Ah..and if you could coment on my choice to objective cities to represent Japan's intended outer-defence ring, that would be nice.
Last edited by kobayashi on 24-05-2005 at 13:49
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Kugelregen
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Are the Japanese supposed to not be able to build any infantry units at the start of the game???
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:21
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THE %#@& SCEN BLEW UP ON ME
My tale of woe goes thusly. 
T'was the merry month of May, 1937 (turn 5). A small Japanese task force of battleships and a transport was peacefully en route from Formosa to Bangkok. Its humanitarian mission, fully sanctioned by the League of Nations, was to free that sorely oppressed city from Barbarian warlords.
The vanguard had reached Bangkok and was fulfilling its task of keeping a route open for the main force. The main force was SW of Saigon, well offshore and beyond any ZOC so as not to pose any threat to Saigon’s belligerent European masters. The day was beautiful as the ships steamed SW through the calm, blue waters of the South China Sea.
Literally like a bolt of lightning from a clear blue sky, European (probably the perfidious French enslavers of the people of Indo China) ships appeared over the horizon, sank a venerable Kongo class BB and damaged several other ships. An Imperial radio intercept station on Saipan picked up the following message "SNEAK ATTACK BY THE EUROPEANS". So much for the first part of my sad tale.
Being a completely naive fool, I figured that this was the best thing to happen to Nippon since sushi. This was an out and out case of blatant, unprovoked aggression. In such instances, the Civilization II Honor Code calls for allies and friends of the aggressor civ to stay out of the conflict. Right? No way, Yamamoto!
There was an instant labelling of Japan as the aggressor, an oil embargo was imposed and sundry other nasty things started to happen. How do I know? I may be naïve but not completely out to lunch, so I used the FIND function to search EVENTS for “Europeans”. Well, waddaya know, this scen rewards unprovoked and random aggression by an AI civ. Methinks that sucks just a mite.
After reloading, I tried various workarounds such as managing to sneak the naval force past the French, and capturing Bangkok. The result was an immediate sneak attack. Taking it a step further, I was delighted that I could actually get the Americans to declare war on the Europeans (Roosevelt came real cheap at 200 gold), This could have been a real hoot to watch but I didn’t want to waste the time. However, unable to satisfactorily solve the problem, I finally gave up and went back to January 1937. This time I am concentrating on capturing Barbarian cities in China, where no one seems to give a damn.
Going back to the discontinued game, in May '37 there were Japanese forces sitting off Barb bases at Ulithi and Munda, patiently waiting for both cities to reach size 2. This bit of action was also sanctioned by the League of Nations and will be repeated in the present game. I’m really curious whether capturing them will cause the Americans and British on nearby islands to pull sneak attacks. If so, I would seriously suggest that the designer get rid of all Barbarian cities outside China. They create unwarranted pitfalls for opportunistic players.
@Kugelregen
Yes. But a few are doled out now and then by the powers that be on Mount Fuji.
Also, get used to the idea of playing the scen with 1 settler as your one and only engineering unit. Don't ask why.
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kobayashi
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Singapore
Dec 2000
time: 13:21
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Glad to see you putting DST through its paces, looking for alternative strategies. Yep its a bummer when you try not to not constrain the AI. In my test games, either the British or Europeans end up controlling bangkok within the first year. I never went near there until sometime in 1939 when war starts in Europe the game tells you its ok to go takeover IndoChina. Getting hit by the embargo in 37 is a long lingering death.
I suppose in my defense all I can say I can't vouch for the AI if you don't behave according to the historical timeline. As is the case in history, the onus is on the player not to provoke the Whiteman powers until you are ready for all-out war. You are warned at the beginning of the game. My aim is to avoid physical constraints like impassable terrain and stuff and just let the consequences be the primary constraints. As for the White powers, they are just one big happy family who like to gang up on the Japs but enjoy seeing the Yellowmen bash each other in China.
(as a matter of interest, the French always wanted to add Thailand to their Indochina possessions and in fact the first naval pacific battle involved French and Saimese ships)
You can safely take Ulithi but I think the U.S. would get pretty upset if you go for Munda. Its all a matter of proximity. Even leaving you ships near their cities makes them sneak attack eventually.
Engineering the entire system via consequences is not as easy as you think. In the first beta, Eivind went and conquered the US right off the bat and disincentives had to be integrated to discourage that.
The settler is meant for you to put out fires (pollution) when POWs breakout (meltdown). Any other use you get out of them is pure bonus.
Last edited by kobayashi on 26-05-2005 at 07:49
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:21
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Thanks for the explanation. Don't worry about my whining. I like exploring the the nooks, crannies and idiosyncracies of a scen. Inevitably, I stick my units where wise men shouldn't tread and something unexpected/unpleasant happens. Occasionally it is interesting enough to report, especially tongue in cheek.
I have a fair appreciation of the difficulty of dealing with with unexpected actions by both the AI and players. This time I got an indication that the AI may have have a "sneak attack" flag of some kind and when that flag goes up nothing can prevent such an attack.
One of the workarounds that I tried was to complete the Japanese moves in April and then use the cheat mode to move all Japanese ships back to the Formosa area, giving up on the idea of taking Bangkok but also avoiding a sneak attack. No luck there. In May, when there were no Japanese units within a zillion miles of the nearest European base, a European ship attacked a Japanese one just off Formosa. That's when I gave up on the idea of a workaround and retreated to the Jan '37 save.
Last edited by AGRICOLA on 29-05-2005 at 08:49
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:21
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DST UPDATE
1. Taking Ulithi is a no-no. After the Japanese took it, the US attacked a few turns later with, of all things, a Yorktown class carrier that had been cruising between Japan and Okinawa. I backtracked a few turns and destroyed the city.
2. Abandoning the attempt to capture Munda had its bright side when it led to my discovery that Japanese ships have some unexpected features. Eventually the US destroyed the city by attacking it from land squares. That event caused considerable joy in Tokyo.
3. In this scen it really pays to carefully check everything each turn. I was delighted to discover that a state of war with China had suddenly come into existence during Japan's Dec '37 turn without any international uproar, sanctions or Chinese sneak attack (I did eventually figure out how and why).
The immediate massive Japanese attack (Japanese units were in position because I was following your instructions to crowd Chinese cities in order to provoke a sneak attack) ended in March '38 with the destruction of the Chinese civ. I believe that this negated the popup about the Burma Road .
However, after Nanning was captured in Feb '38, the Europeans sneak attacked it in April. I was concerned about this possibility but have no idea of how much of China a player can capture before triggering a European response.
4. This really p****d me off because Type 97's were already staging a fun x-country race towards the 3 westernmost Unaligned (Soviet) cities; amphib forces were being organized for sightseeing cruises to Magadan and Vladivostok; and hastily repaired ground and air units were starting to move towards Yenan, Sinching and Harbin to get away from the hot summer weather in southern China in favour of the much cooler Siberian climate and world famous Russian vodka.
Japan has a powerful military and, judging from the tech tree, no useful employment for it until Sept '39. Getting rid of the Soviets will remove concern of a backstab, add production and provide support for more units. The remaining Unaligned cities in North America are landlocked and pose no threat. Is this historical? No, but it is the correct strategic move within the confines of this scenario.
A. The European sneak attack has me in a Catch 22 situation. As long as I don't kill their Inf units either by attacking or defending, there is no Oil Embargo. As you said, getting embargoed in '38 means a slow death to Japan and an effective end to the scen.
If I want to keep playing, the only choice I seem to have is to each turn use the cheat mode to destroy any European units that are in position to attack. I really don't want to backtrack, leave the Chinese civ in existence and have to continually deal with the Burma Road and any other Allied help.
Alternately, I can destroy only any European Inf that could kill themselves by attacking and carry on a desultory undeclared war with them elsewhere, mainly at sea and in the air. Their cities must have Inf units in them so capturing them is out of the question. This seems to be the better option.
Do you have a better idea on how to handle this?
B. This is probably debatable but I have decided that the Warrior Culture (Sun Tzu) wonder is worth more than the improved units that Japan can build after discovering the New Fleet Carrier tech that cancels the wonder. Stopping all research will result in a steady monthly income of 150+ gold and allow a more rapid buildup of both military and industrial strength. I may yet regret doing this but vet units have always had the highest priority for me.
C. I have no definite answer for
quote:
say, if I gave the U.S. a 1000 gold to start off with, what effect do you think that would have - other than making it much more expensive to bribe them to attack the Europeans. |
I think that the question may be academic bacause paying the US 200 gold almost emptied the Japanese treasury. With money so scarce in this scen, that is a price that I would not pay for very questionable and brief US help. Beyond making bribery impossible, I doubt if the extra cash would have much effect on the US war effort.
D. The above may sound like this scen is a bit of a lark. Far from it. It is extremely tough and requires major logistical and industrial planning. In Dec '37, when the balloon went up in China, there were no a/c left in the Pacific islands. Only a BB, two CA's and minimal other naval and ground units remained. Everything else was in China. Without ground, air and naval reinforcements from the islands the China operation would have been too risky.
It is a damnably difficult scen and, apparently, the worst is yet to come. Congratulations. 
Last edited by AGRICOLA on 29-05-2005 at 08:51
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
I have found the holy grail of AI island warfare. |
Holy s**t! No kidding? Wow! 
quote:
Originally posted by kobayashi
Agricola, you should edit the rules file to incorporate the last two items to give yourself a good second half game. |
I will certainly do that. It should make for an interesting time trying to stop enemy invasions. Hopefully, that is still 3-4 years in the future.
Meanwhile, the Soviet operation ended in August '38 with Urumchi razed and the rest of the Soviet cities in Asia captured. There may yet be a few of their infantry units wandering around in the boondocks. All Japanese BB's and most CA's are now vets, not to mention just about all Imperial Marines.
Holding Lhasa should be a blast unless the Brits get touchy about it. A garrison of 10 or so Type 97's as well as Zeros and Bettys should cause serious headaches for the defenders of northern India when Operation "Dump the Raj" gets going. Looking forward to that one.
I opted to delete 6 or so European units rather than lose ~1000 gold due to the effect of the Oil Embargo. I thought it fairer to let the AI suffer due to the sneak attack problem, not me. Admittedly, I may be a little biased on what is fair.
Research has been turned down from 2 turns per tech to 8 turns per tech. Sale of all Public Schools as well as Fortifications in interior cities netted around 1200 gold, a most welcome addition to the threadbare Japanese treasury.
Why is it that the British have been perfect gentlemen about the many Japanese units that have been operating near Hong Kong (only 1 request to remove a trespassing unit) while the Europeans, Soviets and Americans are much more belligerent? It was a Soviet sneak attack that initiated the brief Russo-Japanesse war.
Now that the Japanese hold Huge Population (United Nations), it will be interesting to see if that wonder will let them negotiate their way out of a losing war with the Americans. I'm sure that you have figured out that I've been trying to eliminate one enemy at a time. With the Chinese and Soviets disposed of, Indo China will be a minor operation and will be followed by an attempt to eliminate the British civ and to capture Australia. Subsequently, the islands should be relatively easy pickings. I have no idea what comes after that.
Could you please give the following some consideration. The capture of China gives the Japanese control over a huge potential work force. An enterprising occupation government would certainly raise and organize labor brigades to fix roads etc. Why not enable the building of Civil Defense units in Chinese cities? The single such unit that the Japanese have has been laboring mightily since the beginning and should soon enable Mukden to produce more than 60 shields per turn. A few more CD units would help a lot and not be too unrealistic. After all, the lazy sods work at the rate of settlers, not engineers.
BTW, I think that you have a lot of nerve charging 60 shields for an Army Brothel. Any self-respecting divisional commander would simply clear out the nearest hospital. There would be no equipment to buy and minimal personnel expenses. Beds and bedding are in place and blankets could be used for the odd curtain in the wards. There are times when the lads aren't all that fussy.
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19-05-2005 21:00
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