20-05-2005 22:51									#1
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(Clearwisdom.net) Ms. Zheng Chengkui was eighty years old and retired. She lived in Wujiaohua Dormitory, Huaihuawanlin County, Hunan Province. In October 2000, Ms. Zheng went to Beijing to appeal for Falun Dafa and was arrested and escorted back home. She was arrested again in 2002 for passing out truth clarification materials in Chouhuakou. The Wanlin County police raided her home, confiscated her personal property, and detained her for three months. The police continued harassing Ms. Zheng after her release. The authorities also ordered her children to confine their mother at home and force her to take unnecessary medicines. Ms. Zheng Chengkui passed away in May 2004, as a result of the relentless persecution.

	20-05-2005 22:53									#2
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I don't blame the Chinese, I blame communists!! DAMN YOU CHE!!!

	20-05-2005 23:08									#3
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What's your point? Are you saying that the US is no worse then China? That's nothing to be proud of?

China's legal system is extemely flawed, and about the only good thing to say is that it is not as bad as it was, which in China's case isn't saying a lot. And yet, China is making the slow transition towards the rule of law. I wish it could happen overnight, but it won't.

Am I, as a Chinese-Canadian, proud of the Chinese legal system. No! It has a far way to go. Are there signs of it getting better? Yes. Are the reforms happening quick enough. Debatable. Should we compare the US to China. No. The US has an established rule of law.

	20-05-2005 23:20									#4
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The Chinese legal process is getting better, China is making progress, etc.

In other words you are discussing the BIG PICTURE, rather than accepting that one or a few of the worst incidents charecterize the entire legal system.


Yes the US has established rule of law. And the US, after being attacked on our own soil, 3000 people murdered, has fought a military campaigns that probably went further than any in history to avoid death and destruction to civilians, in which our troops go out of their way to respect civilians rights when hunting for killers and their weapons, and in which our soldiers have for the most part behaved with honor. A few bad apples do not change the big picture.

	20-05-2005 23:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yes the US has established rule of law. And the US, after being attacked on our own soil, 3000 people murdered, has fought a military campaigns that probably went further than any in history to avoid death and destruction to civilians,

How the **** can you say that when more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, when there is clear evidence of U.S. soldiers torturing innocent people. Sad.

	20-05-2005 23:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How the **** can you say that when more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, when there is clear evidence of U.S. soldiers torturing innocent people. Sad.

There is also clear evidence of Chinese Canadians committing acts of violence.

I will agree that this must be stopped! Clearly we must paint everyone with the same brush.

Perhaps set up internment camps of some sort, then deport them.

	20-05-2005 23:27									#7
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Jesus, Asher., You're more intelligent than this.

If a person has committed a crime, then they should be tried. If an organization covers up a crime, then there is a problem.

But this is what I expected from Americans like you: a massive smokescreen and denial of the problem.

	20-05-2005 23:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How the **** can you say that when more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, when there is clear evidence of U.S. soldiers torturing innocent people. Sad.

A. the number is wrong - im not going to rehash this
B. Most of those killed have been directly or indirectly at the hands of the insurgents. (I am not going to address the point as to whether deaths at the hands of the insurgents should be chalked up to the US morally - Im not here discussing whether the Iraq war was a good idea, but how the US MILITARY has executed its tasks.)
C. Some US soldiers have committed torture - the whole point was to put that in the LARGER picture, as you have done with the murder of an old lady in China.

	20-05-2005 23:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Jesus, Asher., You're more intelligent than this. If a person has committed a crime, then they should be tried. If an organization covers up a crime, then there is a problem. But this is what I expected from Americans like you: a massive smokescreen and denial of the problem.

ChineseCanadians commit a crime all the time, and their families frequently cover it up! In fact, communities do!

DEPORT THEM ALL.

Especially the ones with internet access!

	20-05-2005 23:32									#10
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PolyMad mag presents...

Troll vs Troll

Someone please do a comic, I don't know how.

Anyway, the Chinese abuse is within the law, the US troops abuse is against the law.

	20-05-2005 23:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark A. the number is wrong - im not going to rehash this B. Most of those killed have been directly or indirectly at the hands of the insurgents. (I am not going to address the point as to whether deaths at the hands of the insurgents should be chalked up to the US morally - Im not here discussing whether the Iraq war was a good idea, but how the US MILITARY has executed its tasks.) C. Some US soldiers have committed torture - the whole point was to put that in the LARGER picture, as you have done with the murder of an old lady in China.

Simple questions:
a) are you ashamed of what American soldiers have done?
b) do you think that all of the American soldiers who have committed crimes should be brought to justice?

If your answer is yes to both, then we have no disagreement.

	20-05-2005 23:34									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Simple questions: a) are you ashamed of what American soldiers have done? b) do you think that all of the American soldiers who have committed crimes should be brought to justice? If your answer is yes to both, then we have no disagreement.

a) are you ashamed of what Chinese people have done?

	20-05-2005 23:34									#13
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I'm not ashamed. I think if they did it they should be punished, but I didn't do it so again, I'm not ashamed. I have noticed that in different cultures the sense of shame is different.

	20-05-2005 23:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What's your point? Are you saying that the US is no worse then China? That's nothing to be proud of? China's legal system is extemely flawed, and about the only good thing to say is that it is not as bad as it was, which in China's case isn't saying a lot. And yet, China is making the slow transition towards the rule of law. I wish it could happen overnight, but it won't. Am I, as a Chinese-Canadian, proud of the Chinese legal system. No! It has a far way to go. Are there signs of it getting better? Yes. Are the reforms happening quick enough. Debatable. Should we compare the US to China. No. The US has an established rule of law.

So, to sum up your argument.

US has a better legal system in 230 years than China has gotten in several 1000 years?



ACK!

	20-05-2005 23:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Simple questions: a) are you ashamed of what American soldiers have done? b) do you think that all of the American soldiers who have committed crimes should be brought to justice? If your answer is yes to both, then we have no disagreement.

I am ashamed of what SOME American soldiers have done.

I think all of those American soldiers against whom there is sufficient evidence of the commision of crimes under the UCMJ should be charged and tried under the UCMJ.

I remain proud of our soldiers in general, and of the way they have conducted themselves under VERY difficult conditions, conditions that our enemies do their best to make worse.

	20-05-2005 23:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I remain proud of our soldiers in general, and of the way they have conducted themselves under VERY difficult conditions, conditions that our enemies do their best to make worse.

To be fair, that IS the purpose of an enemy........

ACK!

	20-05-2005 23:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I am ashamed of what SOME American soldiers have done. I think all of those American soldiers against whom there is sufficient evidence of the commision of crimes under the UCMJ should be charged and tried under the UCMJ. I remain proud of our soldiers in general, and of the way they have conducted themselves under VERY difficult conditions,

Then on that we have no disagreement.

	21-05-2005 00:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski To be fair, that IS the purpose of an enemy........ ACK!

among other things, it would appear that our enemy attempts to provoke atrocities against civilians. At this time in Baghdad, our enemy is targeting Shiite civilians, including yesterday an aid to Grand Ayatollah Sistani, for the PURPOSE of provoking a Shiite pogrom against the Sunnis, in order to unite the Sunnis behind the insurgents. One Al Qaeeda training manual, IIUC, SUGGEST that while imprisoned AQ members should accuse their guards of atrocities, which has certainly helped to create confusion when genuine abuses have occured. All in all our enemies have made gone way beyond the laws of war, or any notion of morality, western, Islamic, or otherwise, in making the situation more difficult.

	21-05-2005 00:02									#19
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lotm

	21-05-2005 00:06									#20
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Its tough work, but somebody's gotta do it.

	21-05-2005 00:23									#21
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quote: Yes the US has established rule of law. And the US, after being attacked on our own soil, 3000 people murdered, has fought a military campaigns that probably went further than any in history to avoid death and destruction to civilians, in which our troops go out of their way to respect civilians rights when hunting for killers and their weapons, and in which our soldiers have for the most part behaved with honor. A few bad apples do not change the big picture.

And you forgot "invaded a whole country for reasons that had nothing to do with 911" and "****ed up the international diplomatic system", "violated the Geneva Convention" and "pissed off most of the planet".

The difference with the bad apples in the US is that they are running the show.

You're a poor, amateurish hack LOTM.

	21-05-2005 01:34									#22
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Asher, what you forget is that Tingkai isn't Chinese, he's Canadian.

	21-05-2005 02:26									#23
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No, Canadians are apathetic to politics.

Neither he, nor Agathon, are Canadian.

	21-05-2005 03:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The Chinese legal process is getting better, China is making progress, etc. In other words you are discussing the BIG PICTURE, rather than accepting that one or a few of the worst incidents charecterize the entire legal system. Yes the US has established rule of law. And the US, after being attacked on our own soil, 3000 people murdered, has fought a military campaigns that probably went further than any in history to avoid death and destruction to civilians, in which our troops go out of their way to respect civilians rights when hunting for killers and their weapons, and in which our soldiers have for the most part behaved with honor. A few bad apples do not change the big picture.

Hey! Speakin' of human rights, anyone seen the pics of Saddam Hussein in his undies? After that stupid Koran flushing fiasco this one's bound to start a spark east of Istanbul again.

	21-05-2005 03:13									#25
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* Odin adds Tingkai to conspiracy nut list, under tripledoc and tecumseh