21-05-2005 12:16									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You seriously want to stand here and argue that the PRC is not, and never has been truely communist?

Well guess what? I don't give a ****. I don't give a **** because Russia and the current PRC is where the dust bin of history has landed the ideology that you seem to want to salvage from the scrap heap.

Nice curve ball by introducing Israel as an argument for communism though. That earns a point.

	21-05-2005 12:31									#182
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: You seriously want to stand here and argue that the PRC is not, and never has been truely communist?

I said its not now, I never said never has been. How to classify Mao is a pretty dicey question, but calling the CURRENT PRC government communist is just insane.

quote: you seem to want to salvage from the scrap heap

I'm no Communist, the basic organizational principles of Leninism from Democratic Centralism on down are a recipe for disaster. I'm not argueing in favor of Communism, I'm arueing in favor of the truth.

	21-05-2005 12:38									#183
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The only real truth is that shown us by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

I could go on.

That is the truth.

	21-05-2005 12:38									#184
	Got spare money?

quote: What is your setting of choice for serious discourse? Do you discuss politics in meatspace?

At varsity, where a modicum of honesty is expected from the participants.

	21-05-2005 12:47									#185
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The only real truth is that shown us by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... I could go on. That is the truth.

Why do you keep dodging questions
I'm not talking about Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot (pack of evil murderers the lot of 'em). I'm talking about the current government of the PRC, which is not Communist nor is it Leftist in the least and thus people who defend it (such as UR) are not leftist. It seems that this is a fairly simple arguement, why do you have so much difficulty understanding it? Any Communist worth anything would have nothing but disgust for the current government of the PRC.

This is getting almost as surreal as the arguement that because I pointed out (correctly) that Pol Pot did not engage in genocide I must be a defender of Pol Pot's despicable regime....

	21-05-2005 12:48									#186
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: 'No siree, neither the USSR nor the PRC are, nor ever were communist. You'll have to give us another chance to introduce gulags and cultural revolutions to see what we are REALLY capable of!'

Why don't you try reading some actual Marx instead of mouthing off like an ignorant dweeb? St Leo was wondering why I don't bother with serious political debate – this is why.

Jesus, if Great Britain circa 1850 and the United States circa 1950 or even 2005 can be described correctly as "capitalist" then that leaves a great amount of latitude about what can be correctly described so.

Similarly with the Soviet Union and the PRC – one could reasonably describe both as communist during various periods.

All that shows is that there is quite a divergence among both communists and capitalists about what is to be done in society. Presumably the Trotskyists would not wish to wholeheartedly state that the Soviet Union was a communist society. Presumably Keynesians would have a different view of capitalism than someone like Nozick.

Be still my beating heart. If you are going to spend all your energy on wondering whether the correct name has been applied to a political system, then good luck. You will get precisely nowhere.

Some things about the Soviet Union I found very attractive, other things less so. But that doesn't prevent me in any way from acknowledging that they were a communist society, even though my own conception of communism differs quite radically from what was instituted in the USSR.

Presumably, Libertarians are not beaten around the head with the latest US recession because they acknowledge that the USA is a capitalist country, even though they disagree with the particular form of welfare state capitalism that the US embodies.

You could acknowledge this obvious and pedestrian fact, or you could go on talking yourself to death like you usually do.

	21-05-2005 12:50									#187
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The only real truth is that shown us by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot...

Well, if he wasn't sporting a fashionable ice pick, Comrade Trotsky would beg to differ, as would Comrade Guevara.

But then if a group of things are called the same name, that means they must be the same thing in all respects, doesn't it NYE?

	21-05-2005 12:54									#188
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bosh Why do you keep dodging questions I'm not talking about Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot (pack of evil murderers the lot of 'em). I'm talking about the current government of the PRC, which is not Communist nor is it Leftist in the least and thus people who defend it (such as UR) are not leftist. It seems that this is a fairly simple arguement, why do you have so much difficulty understanding it? Any Communist worth anything would have nothing but disgust for the current government of the PRC. This is getting almost as surreal as the arguement that because I pointed out (correctly) that Pol Pot did not engage in genocide I must be a defender of Pol Pot's despicable regime....

Not leftists in the least? Really? Well then why don't you answer the issue of why the peasants do not own their own land?

Any human being would have nothing but disgust for any heretofore known communist regime.

Your wanting to play shell games with what is and is not a communist regime would be very cold comfort to the millions of dead comrades, victims of their own regimes.

	21-05-2005 12:57									#189
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: 'No siree, neither the USSR nor the PRC are, nor ever were communist. You'll have to give us another chance to introduce gulags and cultural revolutions to see what we are REALLY capable of!' Why don't you try reading some actual Marx instead of mouthing off like an ignorant dweeb? St Leo was wondering why I don't bother with serious political debate – this is why.\

Why don't you try reading about the results of Marx in practice before you try 'serious political debate'?

	21-05-2005 12:59									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

*sigh*

Why must people get so outraged about few attempts at accuracy? Since when was trying to be accurate supporting communism? Does being outraged about something make it impossible to speak about it acurately?

By any sane definition of communist government, (aside from "a government that calls itself communist") the current government of the PRC falls well outside of it. I very much doubt that you can formulate a definition of communist government that would include the current government of the PRC (aside from "a government that calls itself communist").

	21-05-2005 13:01									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Why don't you try reading about the results of Marx in practice before you try 'serious political debate'?

Yes! For apparently human minds are far far far too fragile to be outraged about something and seriously debate it at the same time!

That said, I have very little idea why so many people are impressed with Marx. His writing is about as engaging as being smacked in the head with a brick and his theories have been nothing by a blight on the historical profession (my own area of expertise, such as it is...).

	21-05-2005 13:03									#192
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Well then why don't you answer the issue of why the peasants do not own their own land?

Hmmm, sorry for the triple post but are you implying that every social system in which the peasants do not own their own land must necessarily be communist. That would be a very strange arguement.

	21-05-2005 13:06									#193
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Why don't you try reading about the results of Marx in practice before you try 'serious political debate'?

You're such a hack. I bet you sit in your armchair congratulating yourself on how much you know compared to those morons in Ottawa. Give me a break. You are nothing more than another red-faced pub politician who's all talk.

What you're effectively arguing is that no form of communism can work because some have not. That's an elementary logical fallacy. Even a child wouldn't accept that argument.

You wonder why you get no respect when you say such bizarre things?

	21-05-2005 13:09									#194
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Bosh *sigh* Why must people get so outraged about few attempts at accuracy? Since when was trying to be accurate supporting communism? Does being outraged about something make it impossible to speak about it acurately? By any sane definition of communist government, (aside from "a government that calls itself communist") the current government of the PRC falls well outside of it. I very much doubt that you can formulate a definition of communist government that would include the current government of the PRC (aside from "a government that calls itself communist").

The only point you have made is that the current government of the PRC has strayed from the Little Red Book... a little bit.

They are still the same people, by and large, who thought a cultural revolution was a good thing, and that the protestors of Tiananmen should be supported with AFVs driven over their crushed bodies.

Land is still owned only by the state. Dissent is still crushed. If you are trying to argue that things have changed in a permanent and material way, you have not made the case. All you've said is that they are different, you will have to do better than that.

	21-05-2005 13:11									#195
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Why don't you try reading about the results of Marx in practice before you try 'serious political debate'? You're such a hack. I bet you sit in your armchair congratulating yourself on how much you know compared to those morons in Ottawa. Give me a break. You are nothing more than another red-faced pub politician who's all talk. What you're effectively arguing is that no form of communism can work because some have not. That's an elementary logical fallacy. Even a child wouldn't accept that argument. You wonder why you get no respect when you say such bizarre things?

No, I am arguing that NONE have worked. There is a difference. Do try to keep up.

And I don't give a damn about your respect.

	21-05-2005 13:14									#196
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Bosh Hmmm, sorry for the triple post but are you implying that every social system in which the peasants do not own their own land must necessarily be communist. That would be a very strange arguement.

No, but I am saying that about a particular system where the peasants CAN'T own the land.

	21-05-2005 13:21									#197
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: No, I am arguing that NONE have worked. There is a difference. Do try to keep up.

I'm more than capable of keeping up with an amateur like you. In fact you're flat wrong again – the term "work" is vague. Plenty of good and bad came from the USSR. They put the first man into space among other things and managed to drag millions of people out of ignorance and make their society a first rank world power for half a century.

Of course plenty of bad **** happened, but I can't think of any empire (if you don't mind the term) that has not built itself up upon human misery. In fact that's what I find most objectionable about the USSR.

But in any case, the fact that the few experiments so far conducted haven't worked gives no reason to think alternatives won't. In fact it doesn't touch my own theory at all, since I hold that a communist society both requires and is necessitated by a certain level of technology.

I could quite happily agree with you, but it makes absolutely no difference. Your line of reasoning is still a turd.

	21-05-2005 13:24									#198
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is a bit like your "Saddam Hussein is an unpredicatable, psychotic maniac" argument. Well, it would be generous to call it an argument, since you just spent the thread repeating variations of "but he is" without providing any substance.

	21-05-2005 13:25									#199
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I see. Your communism requires Star Trek. Matter replicators and all that. Very good. Let me be the first to agree that 'to each' and all that is very easy in that case.

However, let us know when you turn the TV off and come down to Earth so that we may discuss reality. OK?

	21-05-2005 13:25									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: No, but I am saying that about a particular system where the peasants CAN'T own the land.

So feudalism is communism now. My education continues apace.

	21-05-2005 13:28									#201
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: I see. Your communism requires Star Trek. Matter replicators and all that. Very good. Let me be the first to agree that 'to each' and all that is very easy in that case. However, let us know when you turn the TV off and come down to Earth so that we may discuss reality. OK?

And there's another classic NYE move – a straw man. I have made no such claims.

You must do better.

	21-05-2005 13:30									#202
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: No, but I am saying that about a particular system where the peasants CAN'T own the land. So feudalism is communism now. My education continues apace.

At the very least your insipid comments do.

	21-05-2005 13:30									#203
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I see. Your communism requires Star Trek. Matter replicators and all that. Very good. Let me be the first to agree that 'to each' and all that is very easy in that case. However, let us know when you turn the TV off and come down to Earth so that we may discuss reality. OK? And there's another classic NYE move – a straw man. I have made no such claims. You must do better.

OK. Please show me the promised land, and when it will be possible.

Go ahead.

	21-05-2005 13:34									#204
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: At least your insipid comments do.

You're such a blowhard.

quote: OK. Please show me the promised land, and when it will be possible.

I've told you that I think that AI will cause the labour market to collapse. Of course that kind of AI might not be possible or economical, but current trends indicate the opposite. I've also pointed out that I believe that IT removes the major informational barrier to a planned economy.

Would you care to offer up some reasonable counter, or will you just continue to fling that good old Alberta cow dung?

	21-05-2005 13:38									#205
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Tsk, tsk. Getting all personal. It really does not befit a master of your calibre when addressing a mere peon like me.

But anyway, you think IT and AI will lead to a life of leisure. Maybe for some, but where do the materials come from? The food?

Lay out more of your vision of utopia. I would be happy to hear the tales of such weal.

	21-05-2005 13:43									#206
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Looks like the "left" thread has three times the posts of the "right" thread.

	21-05-2005 13:44									#207
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Tsk, tsk. Getting all personal. It really does not befit a master of your calibre when addressing a mere peon like me.

That's the best you can do? Jesus..

quote: But anyway, you think IT and AI will lead to a life of leisure. Maybe for some, but where do the materials come from? The food?

Why don't you bother reading it again. What does it mean to say that AI will result in a collapse of the labour market? Gee... I dunno....

quote: Lay out more of your vision of utopia. I would be happy to hear the tales of such weal

Why should I bother? It's painfully evident that you've run out of gas at the very first hurdle (yet again, I might add) and you're just hoping that I might trip up so you can save face. Sorry – no sale.

Either respond to the original comment, or leave in shame.

But it's late here in civilized regions of the earth, so these jolly japes will have to wait until tomorrow.

	21-05-2005 13:46									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't think you can say anything other than 'AI and IT will be the salvation of Marx.'

Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Explain it.

	21-05-2005 13:49									#209
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

For someone who spends 90% of their time making speculative and strawman posts, you don't have much room to talk.

	21-05-2005 13:50									#210
	Put an end to popups!

Incidently, Boshko was discussing what was and is, not some fanciful will be.

I can understand that you do not want to discuss what is, but that you would rather dwell in science fiction.

However, fiction it will remain.