21-05-2005 14:23									#211
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quote: The only point you have made is that the current government of the PRC has strayed from the Little Red Book... a little bit.

A little bit? Go to Shanghai. McDonald's all over the place, a real estate speculation boom, insurance companies by the dozen, foreign investors by the truckload, stock exchanges. A little bit??! What?!?!?

quote: They are still the same people, by and large, who thought a cultural revolution was a good thing

Not at all. The cultural revolution are largely people that were wacked around during the cultural revolution, not the Red Guard types. Basically Mao thought that the bureaucracy had gotten to cautious, entrenched and not communist enough and launched the Cultural Revolution as a way of lighting a fire under the bureaucracy's ass and stirring things up (something that the bureaucracy did not appreciate very much). The current Chinese government is the heirs of the bureaucrats who reasserted their power, got rid of the Gang of Four and disbanded the Red Gaurds, not the Red Guards who were ****ing **** up. This doesn't make the current leadership good people, but linking them to the Cultural Revolution is laughable.

quote: Land is still owned only by the state.

This is specifically communist how?

quote: Dissent is still crushed.

This is specifically communist how?

quote: If you are trying to argue that things have changed in a permanent and material way, you have not made the case.

The repressive government apparatus is still in place, but while communist governments are all repressive dictatorships, being a repressive dictatorship hardly makes a country communist.

Also in many many ways the PRC is far to the right of Europe and even the US (crime and punishment, cultural policies, gay rights, environment, workplace safety regulations, labor rights, the list goes on and on and on).

quote: No, but I am saying that about a particular system where the peasants CAN'T own the land.

I don't understand what point you are making here.

	21-05-2005 14:34									#212
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And I expect that you'd have me believe that this is a scene from a typical communist city

Attachment: bustling%20shanghai.jpg
This has been downloaded 84 time(s).

	21-05-2005 15:05									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh And I expect that you'd have me believe that this is a scene from a typical communist city

Commies in denial.

	21-05-2005 15:32									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Commies in denial.

	21-05-2005 15:55									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Mao et al are a whole other story and I'm not really interested in the interminable debate about wether they were true communists or not. HOWEVER, you'd have to be insane to argue that the PRC IN ITS CURRENT INCARNATION is communist or even leftist. In fact the PRC, as it exists today, is probably one of the least leftist countries around. Thus I find it very very strange that people seem to think that supporters of the current PRC goverment (like UR) are leftist.

Baffles me too. UR has espoused quite a few opinions that are directly contradictory to what the CCP does and believes in, yet he supports that government wholly and hops on every anti-American thread he can get.

	21-05-2005 17:35									#216
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You know what I see? I see that the legacy of McCarthy and Reagan still live strongly in certain individuals. Even the very mention of the word 'communism' can induce a rabid foam in the mouth of certain individuals who won't argue about the issue but just hiss and spit. It's rather alarming...

	21-05-2005 17:53									#217
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You know what I see? I see that the legacy of Stalin and Mao still live strongly in certain individuals. Even the very mention of the word 'capitalism' can induce a rabid foam in the mouth of certain individuals who won't argue about the issue but just hiss and spit. It's rather alarming...

	21-05-2005 17:58									#218
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Wow, John, you're so clever, can I be your apprentice?

	21-05-2005 18:00									#219
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Not leftists in the least? Really? Well then why don't you answer the issue of why the peasants do not own their own land?

What does leftism have to do with depriving lower classes of property ownership?

	21-05-2005 18:03									#220
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PH & JT. You're both right.

	21-05-2005 18:08									#221
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ahh, the familiar refrains of the lament for wasted dreams and scorched chances that communists are so fond of... 'No siree, neither the USSR nor the PRC are, nor ever were communist. You'll have to give us another chance to introduce gulags and cultural revolutions to see what we are REALLY capable of!' Forgive me if I do not line up to buy a ticket.

Is the Ivory Coast capitalist? Ukraine?

	21-05-2005 18:14									#222
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I don't think Zimbabwe is strictly a good one to pick at this point mate

	21-05-2005 18:20									#223
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my first DanS ever.

	21-05-2005 18:22									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Wow, John, you're so clever, can I be your apprentice?

One blind stereotype deserves another, dontcha think?

	21-05-2005 18:32									#225
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT One blind stereotype deserves another, dontcha think?

An observation of behaviour, not a stereotype...besides how can it be a stereotype when I referred to 'certain individuals'. I think you ought to choose your words more carefully...

	21-05-2005 22:04									#226
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NYE owned again.

	21-05-2005 22:09									#227
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i'd say
problem_child (he was lefty alright!)
kamrat-x (definitely)
axi (solid)

then you have
che (ok is like asking if the sky is blue)
agathon
spiffor (but far too em calm)
az (solid too considering)
michaelthegreat (ONLY by american standards, i emphasize)
and i probably forget who else right now
and gepap
and hueij (the grown up variety)

	21-05-2005 22:14									#228
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I am not solid, I am big-boned.

	21-05-2005 22:19									#229
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How could anyone label Michael the Great as a leftie. Jeeeezzz, he's to the right of Jefferson Davis.

	21-05-2005 22:33									#230
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yeah i admit that last one was like the nobel nominations. you give the nobel of peace to arafat or kissinger hoping they'll start acting on it

	21-05-2005 22:48									#231
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun What happened to the picture?

It was removed. Ted posted some images of women and I asked him not to do so.

Yours came after, so I removed it.

	21-05-2005 22:49									#232
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I've voted communist more than once in free and fair elections. I don't post in OT very much anymore and its probably been a few years since I've been drawn into a serious debate.

I think all legislatures, senates, etc. should have at least 10% communist members... it would keep big business from running things like in the USA and Canada.

	21-05-2005 22:53									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky I think all legislatures, senates, etc. should have at least 10% communist members...

In a Communist country they'd put you in a mental institution for being order-of-magnitude challenged.

	21-05-2005 22:54									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh And I expect that you'd have me believe that this is a scene from a typical communist city

What gave you the idea that a communist country can't be prosperous? You don't seem to understand the concept much.

	21-05-2005 23:12									#235
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Typical Communist countries don't have Mc Donald's as can be seen in the pic Bosh posted.

	21-05-2005 23:24									#236
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quote: In a Communist country they'd put you in a mental institution for being order-of-magnitude challenged.

You should know. You sound like you're posting from one of them.

	22-05-2005 08:27									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What gave you the idea that a communist country can't be prosperous? You don't seem to understand the concept much.

Because there are no prosperous communist countries. Never have been.

UR, if you want to convince anyone that China is still communist, why don't you do something that you've never done on any issue discussed here? Prove it!