21-05-2005 22:15									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I think the issue is the Dutch government wants to hold a hearing. I saw no mention of proposed changes to what should be taught in science courses.

The minister said (as quoted in the article) that the scientists should "find a place" for religious ideas in their theories. Not only should the ideas of the religious community apparently be taught in schools, it should be treated as legitime scientific theory -- even if it turns out it isn't. We should just keep searching until find a way...

	21-05-2005 22:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Thanks a lot. I edited in the "explanations for the origin of life" bit within 30 seconds or so, but that was what I meant the post to say. I did not intend to backtrack or be dishonest.

No, that's not where you're being dishonest. Editing your post was fine, but accusing me of engaging in a strawman based on what you originally wrote is dishonest, especially since I clearly quote what you originally said. My response to your original phrase was entirely appropriate. Your editing it and then claiming I'm engaged in a strawman to score a cheap point is not. It's certainly more antagonizing than a .

	21-05-2005 22:22									#33
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I did not change the meaning of it. First, it read "Because it's a scientific problem?", after the edit it read "Because pursuing explanations for the origin of life is a scientific problem?".

The strawman remark referred to your posing the question "How is religious philosophy remotely a scientific problem?". I never claimed any such thing, neither before or after the edit, so that's what makes it a strawman.

But I'm through with you. Don't want to have nothing to do with people who accuse me of being dishonest. Especially if they're also as pompous and full of themselves as you've shown yourself to be as of late.

	21-05-2005 22:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I did not change the meaning of it. First, it read "Because it's a scientific problem?", after the edit it read "Because searching for explanation for the origin of life is a scientific problem?".

The Minister's position is that religion is short-changed in the evolutionary theory. So why would I not assume you were referring to religion?

Evolution isn't a scientific "problem," so why should I think you mean anything else?

quote: The strawman remark referred to your posing the questioon "How is religious philosophy remotely a scientific problem?". I never claimed any such thing, neither before or after the edit, so that's what makes it a strawman.

As I said already, adding the clarification is fine. But you didn't just add the clarification, you added it and then accused me--incorrectly--of engaging in a strawman. My question about religious philosophy was appropriate given both how unclear your statement was and the fact that the Minister is explicitley asking scientists to consider religious theories. If your statement was so clear, why would you add the clarification, anyway?

But instead of saying "Wait, that's not what I meant, here's the clarification," you instead claimed I'd made a "strawman," despite it being a reasonable interpretation of the initial vague statement. That's where the dishonesty comes from. It doesn't require me being "full of myself" to point out the cheap tactic.

	21-05-2005 22:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I say dialogue on topics of mutual interest between people from different fields of a democratic society never hurt anyone.

The thing is, there is no mutual interest.

The Creationists don't care about evolution, most of them don't even understand evolution. They only want to push an agenda.

The scientists are interested in theories, but Creationism isn't one. There's nothing to look at.

	21-05-2005 23:47									#36
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Shame on Holland for even entertaining these nutjobs.

	22-05-2005 00:29									#37
	Re: Creationism on the rise in Kans... the Netherlands?! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Locutus But over here we're not talking about some backward state in the middle of nowhere in the south, we're talking about the national government!

They're probably about the same size

	22-05-2005 01:03									#38
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In terms of population the Netherlands is eight times the size of Kansas

	22-05-2005 17:32									#39
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Creationists is the best evidence that Creationism is bunk

	22-05-2005 19:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Creationists is the best evidence that Creationism is bunk

Creationists 'are'.

When engaging in mocking the nutjobs, it behoves us to adhere to rules of grammar and spelling, thus exciting them to a teeth-gnashing mouth-frothing frenzy of anti-pointyheadism.

	22-05-2005 22:37									#41
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My understanding is that the creationists were handily defeated during the debate before the Kansas School Board. I suspect that the same thing will happen in the Netherlands. I think it makes since to have them speak in a public forum. They will collect their arguments for presentation, allowing evolutionists an opportunity to address each and every point in detail. In the end it's better this way.

	22-05-2005 22:39									#42
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Your understanding on Kansas is wrong. Evolutionists didn't participate, they boycotted. By doing so, they insured there would be no stamp of scientific legitimacy on it. And that's exactly the impression the media got. So I'd say that's generally the best way to handle such situations.

	22-05-2005 23:09									#43
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OMG!!11!1!!1!! A discussion!!1!!!1 Oh noes!!

	22-05-2005 23:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Odin My god, the plauge of stupidity is spreading.

Let's just all move to Mars and let the insane people have Earth.

	22-05-2005 23:15									#45
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The red planet.

	22-05-2005 23:48									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Let's just all move to Mars and let the insane people have Earth.

No, lets send all the insane people to Mars, more room for us.

	22-05-2005 23:49									#47
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Mars has the same land area as Earth.

	23-05-2005 01:34									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Mars has the same land area as Earth.

But no breatheable atmosphere nor fresh water.....

	23-05-2005 01:37									#49
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quote: Originally posted by GePap But no breatheable atmosphere nor fresh water.....

I'm sure that if we send the creationists and intelligent design people there God will provide...

	23-05-2005 01:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GePap But no breatheable atmosphere nor fresh water.....

Which has nothing to do with the room.

	23-05-2005 02:00									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Which has nothing to do with the room.

Yeah, and we all know you are an expert on rooms

	23-05-2005 03:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Your understanding on Kansas is wrong. Evolutionists didn't participate, they boycotted. By doing so, they insured there would be no stamp of scientific legitimacy on it. And that's exactly the impression the media got. So I'd say that's generally the best way to handle such situations.

But the creationist "experts" lost when they were forced to admit that they had never read the materials they were criticizing.

	23-05-2005 05:20									#53
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It's worrisome that it is even an issue in the Netherlands.

I thought your religionists were sane enough that only an unimportant margin would oppose evolution. If a minister piushes her luck, and pushes the issue, it means the idiots are much more mainstream than I expected.

	23-05-2005 07:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove But the creationist "experts" lost when they were forced to admit that they had never read the materials they were criticizing.

Some of them are real neanderthals. I present to you William Dembski, a leading light of the Discovery Institute:

quote: I therefore await the day when the hearings are not voluntary but involve subpoenas that compel evolutionists to be deposed and interrogated at length on their views. There are ways for this to happen, and the wheels are in motion (e.g., Congressional hearings over the teaching of biology in federally funded high schools for military kids).

There are a couple of rather violent graphics in the linked article - amusing in a way, and certainly reveals the mentality of Creationists and Mr Dembski in particular.

	23-05-2005 10:13									#55
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Does this mean that because a backwards idea is strong in one part of Europe that we can lump all Europeans together and bash them for stupidity?



The same way that some Europeans do, when one state/one part of United States gets media attention because of a bacwards idea?

	23-05-2005 11:46									#56
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Nah, the US is in a much more advanced stage wrt Creationism. Why, you even had the Scopes Monkey Trial.

	23-05-2005 12:54									#57
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it is ofcourse a big deal this all...but the entire scienctif and polictial world already said the van der hoeven is bonkers to try and just say this...even her own party...

first she cuts my grand to go to college

then she starts talking about these things....serious get a straightjacket for this woman

	23-05-2005 13:22									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Nah, the US is in a much more advanced stage wrt Creationism. Why, you even had the Scopes Monkey Trial.

Yes -- in the early 20th century, and in one state.

	23-05-2005 14:30									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Some of them are real neanderthals.

I'd prefer the company of Neanderthals to the company of intellectually dishonest Creationists any day.

And to the company of those braying whited sepulchres in the fundamentalist camp.

	23-05-2005 15:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Mars has the same land area as Earth.

You're wrong. Mars is about half the size of Earth and thus a much weaker pull of gravity. It can't hold on to much of an atmosphere nor much internal heat so tectonics ran out of steam pretty early in Martian history. That means any standing water on the surface would strip CO2 fron the atmosphere and deposit it as limestone and the planet would rapidly cool as the primary green house gas was removed.