21-05-2005 20:03									#1
	Creationism on the rise in Kans... the Netherlands?! Got spare money?

Source: here and here (in Dutch). Translation:

quote: Minister wants debate evolution theory THE HAGUE Minister Van der Hoeven of Education and Science wants to host a debate about evolution theory and the origin of life. Next fall she wants to have a hearing on her department with scientists and representatives of a number of religions. In the Volkskrant [Dutch newspaper] Van der Hoeven says that evolution theory is not complete and that there are always new things to discover. She says that reactions to religious theories are often negative. The Christian Democratic politician wants to have a inter-cultural discussion that should get a place within science. Among others she wants to invite phycisian [and former minister of health care] Borst and [eminent Dutch] biologist Plasterk. --- Heavy criticism on planned evolution debate RIJSWIJK A lot of criticism has come from both the scientific and political community on the intention of minister Van der Hoeven to have a debate about the origin of life and the theory of evolution. Genetics professor dr. Plasterk said the minister is incapable of seperating church and state. According to Plasterk, Van der Hoeven has shown an interest in the idea of Intelligent Design in the past, an American philosophy which beliefs that there is an 'intelligent design' behind life on earth. The PvdA [Labour Party], LPF [populist party founded by Pim Fortuyn] and D66 [Democratic Party] don't see any value in such a debate. According to MP Lambrechts (D66) it was agreed 6 years ago that all schools in the Netherlands should teach the theory of evolution.

Noooooooooooo!!!!! Kill me, kill me now...

As usual the Christian fundies in the Netherlands are all too eager to immitate and outdo their counterparts in the US. But over here we're not talking about some backward state in the middle of nowhere in the south, we're talking about the national government! The Minister of Science for crying out loud!!!

Explain to me again how these people got to be the largest political party in a country which is predominantly atheist?

quote: She says that reactions to religious theories are often negative.

No sh*t! Religion is not science, you stupid twit...

This is more proof Christian political parties are EVIL and should be outlawed. Religion should stay as far away from politics as possible.



Okay, I'm done now. End of rant...

	21-05-2005 20:06									#2
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quote: But over here we're not talking about some backward state in the middle of nowhere in the south,

You never actually looked at a map of the US, have you?

	21-05-2005 20:18									#3
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Just shows you how far in the nowhere they are

	21-05-2005 20:35									#4
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Waiting for CyberShy to arrive...

	21-05-2005 20:54									#5
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I'm sure that in the Netherlands these biblebashers are going to get eaten for lunch...

	21-05-2005 20:58									#6
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My god, the plauge of stupidity is spreading.

	21-05-2005 21:03									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I'm sure that in the Netherlands these biblebashers are going to get eaten for lunch...

Don't be too sure. We are definitely not the country we were ten years ago. To paraphrase Blind Lemon Jefferson: "Conservatives all around me, conservatives everywhere I look..."

	21-05-2005 21:08									#8
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quote: Noooooooooooo!!!!! Kill me, kill me now...

You'd think the world is about to come to an end because someone wants to hold a HEARING. omgomg.

I say dialogue on topics of mutual interest between people from different fields of a democratic society never hurt anyone.

quote: But over here we're not talking about some backward state in the middle of nowhere in the south, we're talking about the national government!

Obviously, the state of Kansas wasn't created where it is today, it evolved into the Midwest from the South.

	21-05-2005 21:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Winston You'd think the world is about to come to an end because they want to hold a HEARING. omgomg. I say dialogue on topics of mutual interest between people from different fields of a democratic society never hurt anyone. Obviously, the state of Kansas wasn't created where it is today, it evolved into the Midwest from the South.

Mutual interest?? The only interest here is the interest of fundies trying to rewind the clock back to the 19th century.

I'm glad Plasterk already declined the invitation...

	21-05-2005 21:17									#10
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You can't deny they have a mutual interest in explaining the origins of life. You make it seem like religious people are always out to distort "the truth", whereas it's my impression they are eagerly searching for answers to many of the same questions that scientists are researching.

I hardly see anything negative come out of bringing the two groups together at a hearing, the worst that could happen is that one side will fall asleep or something.

	21-05-2005 21:17									#11
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I bet it isn't just Christian fundimentalists but also Muslim fundimentalists who love this idea.

	21-05-2005 21:28									#12
	Re: Creationism on the rise in Kans... the Netherlands?! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Source: here and here (in Dutch). Translation: Noooooooooooo!!!!! Kill me, kill me now... As usual the Christian fundies in the Netherlands are all too eager to immitate and outdo their counterparts in the US. But over here we're not talking about some backward state in the middle of nowhere in the south, we're talking about the national government! The Minister of Science for crying out loud!!! Explain to me again how these people got to be the largest political party in a country which is predominantly atheist? No sh*t! Religion is not science, you stupid twit... This is more proof Christian political parties are EVIL and should be outlawed. Religion should stay as far away from politics as possible. Okay, I'm done now. End of rant...

Maybe you're the one out of touch.

	21-05-2005 21:29									#13
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my college, Gustavus Adolphus, had a dialogue between some leading creationists and evolutionists

my freinds who went (I did not) said that it was interesting, and that both sides scored points

but that there was a lot of dodging arround

it is often useful to hear about what others think.... and why they think it

btw, my freinds all were (And are) evolutionists

Jon Miller

	21-05-2005 21:30									#14
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in a nutshell just what are these creationsists claim? that the monkey ate the apple?
that is completely alien

	21-05-2005 21:34									#15
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quote: She says that reactions to religious theories are often negative.

Really? Which theories are those? I'm not aware of a single religious scientific theory. In fact, such a thing is an oxymoron.

Who is this woman? Does she have a science background? Well, obviously not, since she'd say such a stupid thing.

How is evolution not being "complete" a problem? How many theories are "complete" that she doesn't want to debate? I don't see her taking on quantum mechanics.

	21-05-2005 21:34									#16
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what i mean is i imagine they discard the evolution of man.
ok so what are they saying? that adam ate the apple and then he was discharged on earth. so i imagine they must claim that man existed as a separate species.
ok since when was he a separate species?
do they claim before the dinosaurs?
do they claim after the dinosaurs?


because that way we can locate in time exactly when adam and eve screwed up!

	21-05-2005 21:39									#17
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and how do they reply to the multiplication of humans just from two people?! come on
that would either mean that heaven had other residences but they were hidden behind the leaves. and they were all evicted but that means there's a guilt by association. that goes against the free will dogma thing. it's a dead end. unless there were dna-compatible animals on earth and they did the wild thing with them. which would explain why in that sanscrit book the "angels" which were in fact aliens in spaceships told the men/women to "stop doing it in the doggy stance!" because that was the animal way. whereas they should be missionaries. like the advanced angels who fornicated with the hot females.
actually that's much more exciting than the boring evolution theory. i think i'll become a creationsit

	21-05-2005 21:44									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Winston You can't deny they have a mutual interest in explaining the origins of life. You make it seem like religious people are always out to distort "the truth", whereas it's my impression they are eagerly searching for answers to many of the same questions that scientists are researching.

But the issue is what should be taught in science courses. Religious philosophy shouldn't, only science should. To date, there is no religious scientific theory on the origin of life--it's purely a metaphysical one. That's not what science is about. Bring it up in a philosophy or religions course. But don't give it credeence as "science" when it clearly isn't.

	21-05-2005 21:45									#19
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I think the issue is the Dutch government wants to hold a hearing. I saw no mention of proposed changes to what should be taught in science courses.

	21-05-2005 21:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I think the issue is the Dutch government wants to hold a hearing. I saw no mention of proposed changes to what should be taught in science courses.

Why else would the Minister of Education and Science be making an issue of it?

	21-05-2005 21:51									#21
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But I also think Oerdin might have a point about the Muslims. The use of the wording "inter-cultural discussion" could mean between the cultures of science and religion, but it's a bit ambiguous.

	21-05-2005 21:52									#22
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Beacuse pursuing explanations for the origin of life is a scientific problem?

And cut out the rolleyes. It only serves to antagonize the person you're talking to.

	21-05-2005 21:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Beacuse it's a scientific problem?

No, because it's opening the door to a debate about what should be in school curriculum.

How is religious philosophy remotely a scientific problem?

	21-05-2005 21:54									#24
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quote: According to Plasterk, Van der Hoeven has shown an interest in the idea of Intelligent Design in the past, an American philosophy which beliefs that there is an 'intelligent design' behind life on earth.

that brought to my mind an interesting thing indeed. so some scientists were searching for ways were luck or God would be able to "decide". because of course as we know everything follows the rules of science right?
so if one has enough information he can see the evolution of all things in the future based on the science rules.
but not so fast. these scientists dwelled deep into the molecular structure of things to see what could actually be "on chance" or "on God's hands". So they found that in the molecular level some atom or something has the exact 50% chance of collapsing or maintaining its integrity on a given situation. that's exactly half half. so if one could "decide" that would be his chance. then again this is yet another law of science but at least that's a part where even if you'd have unlimited information beforehand about things you could still not know an outcome.

	21-05-2005 21:56									#25
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Now you're just speculating.

And launching strawman arguments to boot. I never said religious philosophy is a scientific problem.

	21-05-2005 22:06									#26
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Update: even her own party, the Christian Democrats, thinks she is out of line on this one

	21-05-2005 22:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Now you're just speculating. And launching strawman arguments to boot. I never said religious philosophy is a scientific problem.

You edited your post and accuse me of strawmanism? You're so dishonest it's painful.

First, evolution isn't about the origin of life, it's about the common descent of life.

Second, scientific problems are already debated in scientific journals, seminars, etc. Evolution was debated 100+ years ago and won, hands down. It is no longer debated in science, despite ludicrous claims of creationists to the contrary.

Third, my "speculation" makes a lot more sense than yours. Government panels don't take up scientific issues unless it's in order to address some policies. The only relevant policies here that she would be considering would be educational ones. Considering she is involved with ID, as the article states, it's pretty damned obvious she's bringing it up as a precursor to a curriculum debate. Otherwise, there's no reason for the government to get involved in a scientific issue that otherwise has no bearing on government policy. And there's also the fact that we've seen this exact thing arising in the U.S. for many years. So precedent has been established.

If she's just doing it for curiosity's sake, then she's wasting both taxpayers' time and money in addressing a nonexistant controversy that science settled on a century ago and should be sacked.

	21-05-2005 22:09									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Update: even her own party, the Christian Democrats, thinks she is out of line on this one

But locutus already said they're evil and should be outlawed, so they don't count.

	21-05-2005 22:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Winston You'd think the world is about to come to an end because someone wants to hold a HEARING. omgomg.

This person is the Minister of Science and Education (and as such my highest boss) and she wants the Dutch scientific commmunity (which includes me) to find a way to "find a way to give a place to" religious 'theories'. That *is* a big deal.

I'm just about the most tolerant person you'll ever find when it comes to religion, but religion and science are two completely seperate and mutually exclusive things -- they by definition do not mix. If what is effectively the highest power in the scientific community in this country thinks otherwise, she should IMO resign immediately. She should definitely NOT hold a hearing on the matter to push her evangelist ways through the throats of serious scientists.

quote: I say dialogue on topics of mutual interest between people from different fields of a democratic society never hurt anyone.

But there is no mutual interest. Scientists want to find the closest approximation to the objective truth about the origin of life. Religious leaders claim to already know this truth and only want to legitimize their claims.

	21-05-2005 22:13									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You edited your post and accuse me of strawmanism? You're so dishonest it's painful.

Thanks a lot. I edited in the "explanations for the origin of life" bit within 30 seconds or so, but that was what I meant the post to say. I did not intend to backtrack or be dishonest in any way. I'd have thought you wouldn't stoop to such low accusations.

Quite frankly, I think you're so full of yourself it's laughable.