23-05-2005 10:22									#1
	Civ 4 interface. DROP THE PAPYRUS SCROLL MENUS (and other graphic concerns) Got spare money?

So Firaxis, you want the graphics of the world to jump out? Then don't doll up something that should be as iconographicaly simple as the menu bars and city views!

CONTRAST between a simple, sharp menu set and the vibrant, flowing world set. One compliments the other in defining opposing forms - in that seperation; further ingraining gamer perception of function. When the game plays like a properly heterogeneous set up - it becomes a more enjoyable, replay worth product. Throw make up and cheap animations on everything you can and this franchise is going to become even less marketable.

The general terrain imporvements and wonder specials actually look impressive this time; good to see the development got away from art-school drop out red clay mountains and teal oceans. Very nice trick in appealing to the old-school Civ1 look. I just hope you don't plan on f*ing all else up with "caveman playing carnival game" animations (and the like).

Yet above all else.. Civilization's market niche must be recognized. 13 year old morons have better eye candy games to pay attention (and patronage) to than a classic, TBS series. If they're going to buy it - they're going to buy it because of the name, not a poorly rendered, cleavage baring Joan of Arc on the back of the box. Upon stamping "Civilization [X]" on the box - the 13 year old moron is already a sure sell. YOUR market to capitalize upon is the analytical, the formulaic, the re-player, the arrogant. Make this the only product for them!

Civ 1 was genius. Civ 2 was genius further defined. Civ 3 was nothing more than a dog by minds of the mediocre.

Civ 4 had better be computer heroin. Addictive and the ultimate, an ongoing fix for the mature suburbanite. Hook the aged and the arrogant who remember the old Civilization series, and do it now. If they're left too long, perchance too dissapointed, they will move on to real life. At which point, all you have left to cater to is slim portion of the eye-candy market. Pretty tough to do with a TBS, right?

Best wishes, and redemption of the series.

	23-05-2005 11:25									#2
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Nothing to add.
" Civ 3 was nothing more than a dog by minds of the mediocre."
That's right.

However, we haven't yet seen the game, so our judgement can't be nothing but irrelevant for the moment.

	23-05-2005 17:20									#3
	Re: Civ 4 interface. DROP THE PAPYRUS SCROLL MENUS (and other graphic concerns) Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Zylka So Firaxis, you want the graphics of the world to jump out? Then don't doll up something that should be as iconographicaly simple as the menu bars and city views! CONTRAST between a simple, sharp menu set and the vibrant, flowing world set. One compliments the other in defining opposing forms - in that seperation; further ingraining gamer perception of function. When the game plays like a properly heterogeneous set up - it becomes a more enjoyable, replay worth product. Throw make up and cheap animations on everything you can and this franchise is going to become even less marketable. The general terrain imporvements and wonder specials actually look impressive this time; good to see the development got away from art-school drop out red clay mountains and teal oceans. Very nice trick in appealing to the old-school Civ1 look. I just hope you don't plan on f*ing all else up with "caveman playing carnival game" animations (and the like). Yet above all else.. Civilization's market niche must be recognized. 13 year old morons have better eye candy games to pay attention (and patronage) to than a classic, TBS series. If they're going to buy it - they're going to buy it because of the name, not a poorly rendered, cleavage baring Joan of Arc on the back of the box. Upon stamping "Civilization [X]" on the box - the 13 year old moron is already a sure sell. YOUR market to capitalize upon is the analytical, the formulaic, the re-player, the arrogant. Make this the only product for them! Civ 1 was genius. Civ 2 was genius further defined. Civ 3 was nothing more than a dog by minds of the mediocre. Civ 4 had better be computer heroin. Addictive and the ultimate, an ongoing fix for the mature suburbanite. Hook the aged and the arrogant who remember the old Civilization series, and do it now. If they're left too long, perchance too dissapointed, they will move on to real life. At which point, all you have left to cater to is slim portion of the eye-candy market. Pretty tough to do with a TBS, right? Best wishes, and redemption of the series.

Well said.

	23-05-2005 17:54									#4
	Remove this text

From the E3 vids, I can see a far better product than CIV3.

I have high hopes.

If the developers were really pandering to the arcade hamster
brigade, they would not have bothered with the emphasis
on complex mod tools, or stuck with the TBS format.

	23-05-2005 19:11									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: If the developers were really pandering to the arcade hamster brigade, they would not have bothered with the emphasis on complex mod tools, or stuck with the TBS format.

If they did a different format, they'd absolutely lose all the hardcore fans. But we still have to see the game. We still don't know if it really is more complex than Civ3 or not.

	23-05-2005 19:19									#6
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quote: From the E3 vids, I can see a far better product than CIV3. I have high hopes.

Things tend to look nicer from a bigger distance than from smaller..

	23-05-2005 20:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Solver We still don't know if it really is more complex than Civ3 or not.

It's not. Soren has been very clear about this from early 2004 onwards. Civ4 will introduce new stuff, but at the expense of existing stuff.

If you're still holding out for more complexity and that's a game-maker or breaker for you, you should probably give it up and move on to Legion II or something like that. You're only gonna be disappointed...

	23-05-2005 21:24									#8
	Put an end to popups!

CIV is getting complex every incarnation. Resources, borders, were things that did not exist in CIV II, as with religion in CIV III. It is true that they are twisting some elements like unhappiness and pollution, but in the overall, the game is getting more complex than CIV III. I just hope it will have a challenging AI that can max out the new strategic options and not be a bully like in CIV III.

	23-05-2005 21:53									#9
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quote: If you're still holding out for more complexity and that's a game-maker or breaker for you, you should probably give it up and move on to Legion II or something like that. You're only gonna be disappointed...

I will not be disappointed if it's not as complex as some other games, I will only be disappointed if it's simply dumbed down. Which is a different thing. For instance, since mixed arms will be encouraged in Civ4, that actually counts like a plus for complexity.

	23-05-2005 22:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 CIV is getting complex every incarnation. Resources, borders, were things that did not exist in CIV II, as with religion in CIV III. It is true that they are twisting some elements like unhappiness and pollution, but in the overall, the game is getting more complex than CIV III. I just hope it will have a challenging AI that can max out the new strategic options and not be a bully like in CIV III.

You should read Soren's notes for the GDC04 (or my fact thread, where I incorporated these notes). Soren specifically said that Civ4 is reversing this trend. Yes, that was true for Civ1-3, but it won't be for Civ4.

quote: Originally posted by Solver I will not be disappointed if it's not as complex as some other games, I will only be disappointed if it's simply dumbed down. Which is a different thing. For instance, since mixed arms will be encouraged in Civ4, that actually counts like a plus for complexity.

Overall it won't be dumbed down -- as Soren said it wouldn't be more complex but not less either. However, individual features will be, such as for instance combat with just a single Strengh value or the Happiness model where unhappy citizens just stop working.

	23-05-2005 22:29									#11
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quote: However, individual features will be, such as for instance combat with just a single Strengh value or the Happiness model where unhappy citizens just stop working.

Too early to say. Combat with a single Strength value, but bonuses based on unit type, terrain and of course the promotions may well provide more complex combat than Civ3.

	24-05-2005 00:19									#12
	Put an end to popups!

yes, it is too early to say.

and kudos to Zylka for writing anything other than spam

	24-05-2005 00:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus It's not. Soren has been very clear about this from early 2004 onwards. Civ4 will introduce new stuff, but at the expense of existing stuff.

Hopefully at expense of what Civ3 tried to introduce. The return of caravans, for example.. or perhaps even a hybrid of past and present model(s), would be a wonderful surprise. I'm already loving the idea of hybrid artillery units, as well as cumulative attacking with unit specific counters.

quote: and kudos to Zylka for writing anything other than spam

Hey, you get a gem one for thirty. Enjoy!

	24-05-2005 00:43									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Zylka Hopefully at expense of what Civ3 tried to introduce. The return of caravans, for example..

That would be the worst possible decision they could make, short of reverting back to Civ1's combat model. Civ4 needs to have less tedious micromanagement, not more. It's bad enough we'll still have to move around dozens of Workers...

Fortunately Soren already said that it won't happen (except for Great Merchants, but those are fairly rare)

quote: or perhaps even a hybrid of past and present model(s)

I do think we might be seeing some of that. There are a lot of features in Civ4 that remind me of Civ2, SMAC, CtP, etc -- so it does appear they're trying to merge some of the best stuff from all previous Civ games, not just Civ3.

	24-05-2005 01:04									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Locutus That would be the worst possible decision they could make, short of reverting back to Civ1's combat model. Civ4 needs to have less tedious micromanagement, not more. It's bad enough we'll still have to move around dozens of Workers...

For wonder production? No way. And OF COURSE the old caravan model of establishing route after route is more than tediously obsolete - but single, or massively encompassing flag routes would be something interesting. In any case, the C3 model of trade (and wonder production) did not work.

	24-05-2005 01:14									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Zylka For wonder production? No way. And OF COURSE the old caravan model of establishing route after route is more than tediously obsolete - but single, or massively encompassing flag routes would be something interesting. In any case, the C3 model of trade (and wonder production) did not work.

Actually, IMO trade is the one and only feature in Civ3 that did work (although there's still considerable room for improvement).