23-05-2005 21:13									#1
	Netherlands as vassal of Spain. Remove this text

In my current game im playing as Spain. Somehow Burgundy/ Austria didnt manage to hold Holland, etc - when i inherited on Phillips accession, all i got of the Netherlands was the South (Flanders, Artois, Brabant, Luxembourg) and Friesland. rest was held by Gelre (who also held Oldenburg)

Gelre interestingly, was Protestant, while most of its provinces were Reform. They actually sent missionaries to reconvert Reform provinces to Protestant.

I put down rebellions in Artois, Flanders, etc. I made no investments in Friesland, which was both Reform and isolated. When I finally got a revolt in Friesland (after the Union of Arras) I decided rather than put it down, id let it go as a vassal - only choice is to let it go as the Netherlands. So now theres one province Netherlands as my vassal.

Almost immediately Gelre decides to join the Netherlands, which therefore now (1580) has Friesland, Holland, Zealand, Gelre, Oldenburg. And is STILL my vassal.

Each event makes sense on its own, but the result seems odd to me.

	24-05-2005 19:27									#2
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I don't see why it's so weird. I imagein if the Dutch were allowed to rule themselves from the begining, they may have been content with paying a tribute to Spain.

	24-05-2005 19:58									#3
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I usually release Netherlands as a vassal ASAP as the wrong religion/wrong culture reduces the economic value of the provinces and for the hassle of revolt risk I feel it is just easier to take the vassal payments and concentrate my own efforts elsewhere. So I do often see something like this.

Historically the Netherlands were pushed into rebellion by Phillip when he cracked down on protestantism and sent in Alva with an army , who acted so harshly it drove the leading catholic Dutch families into revolt alongside the protestants. If the Dutch had been left to their own devices they would have probably had some degree of religious freedom and continued to pay taxes to Spain. However, they weren't. the English took their side, the Spanish Armada failed, later Cromwell allied with France against Spain and eventually France invaded the southern provinces of the Spanish Netherlands. From global superpower to a second division European country in less than a century - except of course you can do better than history!

	24-05-2005 21:21									#4
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what you guys are missing, is that i didnt release the whole North Netherlands, Holland and all.


I did NOT hold Holland, Zealand, or Gelre. The only province in the North Netherlands I held was Friesland. Small, poor Friesland. Thats it.

The "Netherlands" started off as a one province minor, AND as a vassal to Spain. Sitting next to a wealthy four province Gelre. A totally independent Gelre. So Gelre turns to little Netherlands/Friesland and offers to join, AND to be vassalized to Spain - cause, er, they want the Netherlands events????? I mean I understand why the game mechanics drives that, but it still seems odd.

	25-05-2005 15:18									#5
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Historically William the Silent started small and, once he had some success and gained some territory, other Dutch towns and provinces threw in with him. The game event reflects this, your case is just a bit more extreme than usual. The game events just aren't complex enough to cope with every possibility that a pretty complex game like this can throw up.

	25-05-2005 21:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Historically William the Silent started small and, once he had some success and gained some territory, other Dutch towns and provinces threw in with him. The game event reflects this, your case is just a bit more extreme than usual. The game events just aren't complex enough to cope with every possibility that a pretty complex game like this can throw up.

Yeah, that was my point, just looking to see if anyone had any further insight. I like the game much, and recognize that theres a compromise between a more open ended game, in which little is driven by events, or in which all events are closely tied to game state, and the flavor oriented events. This was an interesting example of an "emergent" happening - where the tendency of the Netherlands to form as soon as an independent Netherlands is available, combined with the vassal release options, led to this odd result.