24-05-2005 10:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Zimbabwe was a relatively small country with intensive farming at industrial level - splitting the farming land up as done is just a catastrophe just as it would be if tried in Denmark.

I am not sure if that is good agricultural practice.

First, planting the same crop/whatnot in a large scale is now deemed a bad thing, because a disease, parasite, or some other thing that attacks the plant will wipe a huge percentage of them out.

Second, these practices are simply not sustainable. It requires dumping more and more synthetic fertilizers into the land and the use of more and more synthetic pesticides. This stuff kills the land and gets into the surface and ground water. What fun.

It's entirely possible that this is why they are failing.

	25-05-2005 04:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's really ignorant to simply call a country wealthy by its GDP and economic production when the wealthy of that country were a minority of elitist whites until their party was crashed with the overthrow of apartheid and unfair, exploitative land distribution that promoted mass poverty for the rest of the population.

I think that it is pretty ignorant to think that the solution to those things you mention, is to destroy trade, industrial and agricultural production. Especially if it is done so properly that a country that before could feed themself and export food, now has to import it.

	25-05-2005 04:18									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am not sure if that is good agricultural practice. First, planting the same crop/whatnot in a large scale is now deemed a bad thing, because a disease, parasite, or some other thing that attacks the plant will wipe a huge percentage of them out. Second, these practices are simply not sustainable. It requires dumping more and more synthetic fertilizers into the land and the use of more and more synthetic pesticides. This stuff kills the land and gets into the surface and ground water. What fun. It's entirely possible that this is why they are failing.

If that was what they were doing, then you would be right, but I seriously doubt it. Not being a farmer myself, I although know that shift of crops etc are common practice and I think that the old farmers in Zimbabwe also knew this.

	25-05-2005 07:27									#34
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quote: It's entirely possible that this is why they are failing.

Do you really believe that?

	25-05-2005 08:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Do you really believe that?

You don't think the land deteriorating can be a cause?

	25-05-2005 09:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You don't think the land deteriorating can be a cause?

Lets see, a certain set of farming methods had been producing lots of crops and then we have land reform go in that's so inept that today most of the land that was transferred IS NOT EVEN BEING TILLED and you blame the former farming methods? That's surreal.

Yes over-intensive farming can damage the productivity of land but that tends to be gradual and doesn't result in the kind of country-wide collapse that we've seen in Zimbabwe. After all if it was the farming methods and not the inept government that was at fault why don't we see similar collapses in other countries that use similar farming methods.

Your arguement is basically similar to, say, blaming the problems of the Great Leap Forward on the weather. Yes, weather can cause problems but when the government tries to massively reform a whole sector of the economy and then things go horribly horribly wrong, its almost definately the government's fault.

	26-05-2005 20:26									#37
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While I do agree that Robert Mugabe and his government is bad and corrupt. I also believe that taking land back from whites that was basically STOLEN is not necessarily wrong or bad. It's a tough situation that the current whites did not create but benefit from. A better solution is needed that will impower the majority and the country as a whole.

	26-05-2005 22:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pax While I do agree that Robert Mugabe and his government is bad and corrupt. I also believe that taking land back from whites that was basically STOLEN is not necessarily wrong or bad. It's a tough situation that the current whites did not create but benefit from. A better solution is needed that will impower the majority and the country as a whole.

Steal the land from innocent people after it has been cultivated and developed for decades? Sounds fair.

	26-05-2005 22:35									#39
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Can someone please tell me how this is America and/or Bush's fault. I'm starting to lose faith in 'poly.

	27-05-2005 01:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Steal the land from innocent people after it has been cultivated and developed for decades? Sounds fair.

Caligastia,
I definitely am not condoning stealing the land from innocent people. What I said was that the whites are/were benefitting from lands that were stolen from the African people that were already there prior to colonialism. I think it's unrealistic to emancipate/desegregate/deapartheid/grant independence or whatever and still leave the people in the same state as they were before gaining that so-called freedom. It was that way in the USA when they slaves were freed but continued to work on the same fields as there ancestors for the same white master. Black were not really free until over a hundred years later. The same can be said for almost every African country that was subjected to colonialism. They were greated independence but the Europeans still controlled the resources that were ill-gotten gains. It's not fair for the Blacks Africans to take this stolen property back but it's also not fair for the whites to continue to benefit from what was stolen. So what do we have? A ****ed up situation that needs to be resolved. I propose a program that will allow the whites to keep most of the land at the same time giving up a share to the blacks and also promoting programs to educate and provide economic stability to the blacks so that everyone in the country can I have equal opportunities and the country will be stronger as a whole.

	27-05-2005 01:43									#41
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Pax: Americans are benefitting from lands that were stolen from Native Americans that were already there... so should we give the entire country back to them?

	27-05-2005 01:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Pax: Americans are benefitting from lands that were stolen from Native Americans that were already there... so should we give the entire country back to them?

Read my post. It's more complicated because of the amount of **** america stole and the fact that it would be impossible for America to fully repatriate every family member of a slave, every mexican, every indian, and every chinese person that was subjugated. So we as Americans have programs that will get these groups onto an equal footing with the mainstream. I say that's a great idea. If you read my post you will see that's basically what I'm advocating for Zimbabwe. By the way, the most christian and moral thing to do would be to give the stolen goods back.

	27-05-2005 01:56									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Pax: Americans are benefitting from lands that were stolen from Native Americans that were already there... so should we give the entire country back to them?

nah, but we SHOULD gamble enough at their casinos to offset some of the value of the land

	27-05-2005 01:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Read my post. It's more complicated because of the amount of **** america stole and the fact that it would be impossible for America to fully repatriate every family member of a slave, every mexican, every indian, and every chinese person that was subjugated. So we as Americans have programs that will get these groups onto an equal footing with the mainstream. I say that's a great idea. If you read my post you will see that's basically what I'm advocating for Zimbabwe. By the way, the most christian and moral thing to do would be to give the stolen goods back.

I'm not Christian. Spare me.

	27-05-2005 02:08									#45
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Maybe you're not Christian but I did consider you to be a decent man of morals with a sense of right and wrong. If I'm wrong please let me know.

	27-05-2005 02:13									#46
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I also don't really see a moral obligation to return property stolen generations ago.

	27-05-2005 02:15									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I also don't really see a moral obligation to return property stolen generations ago.

What are your beliefs? For instance. Do you hate terrorists but love the inequality that causes it.

	27-05-2005 02:18									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Pax What are your beliefs? For instance. Do you hate terrorists but love the inequality that causes it.

cool phrase

	27-05-2005 02:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Pax What are your beliefs? For instance. Do you hate terrorists but love the inequality that causes it.

	27-05-2005 03:10									#50
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It's a tragic result we see here. Hopefully however the fate of Zimbabwe will discourage South Africa from going down a similar path.

	27-05-2005 03:36									#51
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I agree. But something has to be done about the economic state of blacks in Africa. Equality is in name only if the people don't have the same social and economic opportunities as the whites in Africa.

	27-05-2005 03:53									#52
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And so of course the solution is blanket redistribution of productive farmland from those who can work it effectively to those who cannot/will not.

	27-05-2005 04:58									#53
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New Zimbabwe economic plan.
http://www.satirewire.com/briefs/aaa_zimbabwe.shtml

	27-05-2005 05:02									#54
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And its free and fair election.
http://www.satirewire.com/briefs/zimbabwe.shtml

	27-05-2005 05:08									#55
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Damn, Mugabe's one funny guy.

Mugabe

	27-05-2005 06:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I agree. But something has to be done about the economic state of blacks in Africa. Equality is in name only if the people don't have the same social and economic opportunities as the whites in Africa.

The problem is that the new, post colonial, governments stole from the weathly (and everyone else) and redistributed the wealth to themselves. The only thing liberation did was create a class of rich black individuals, rather than a redistribution of wealth. You can't blame 25 years of economic mismanagement on one ethnic group when rampant corruption and lack of good governance is the problem.

As for South Africa not following the Zimbabwe route. Well this assumes that people actual learn from their history lessons. My example that proves otherwise is as follows: Tanzania (tried socialist principles)--> led to economic ruin. Malawi, got independence after Tanzania (tried socialist principles) --> led to economic ruin. Zambia, got independence around the same time as Malawi, (tried socialist principles) ---> led to economic ruin. Zimbabwe, got independence after Zambia (tried socialist principles) ---> economic ruin. South Africa, Dabbling in socialist principles ----> economy running good at the moment, but leading economic and social indicators point to (you guessed it) economic ruin.

	27-05-2005 06:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker And so of course the solution is blanket redistribution of productive farmland from those who can work it effectively to those who cannot/will not.

I don't think the idea you're proposing is going to work kuciwalker.

	27-05-2005 07:05									#58
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quote: Originally posted by atomant The problem is that the new, post colonial, governments stole from the weathly (and everyone else) and redistributed the wealth to themselves. The only thing liberation did was create a class of rich black individuals, rather than a redistribution of wealth. You can't blame 25 years of economic mismanagement on one ethnic group when rampant corruption and lack of good governance is the problem. As for South Africa not following the Zimbabwe route. Well this assumes that people actual learn from their history lessons. My example that proves otherwise is as follows: Tanzania (tried socialist principles)--> led to economic ruin. Malawi, got independence after Tanzania (tried socialist principles) --> led to economic ruin. Zambia, got independence around the same time as Malawi, (tried socialist principles) ---> led to economic ruin. Zimbabwe, got independence after Zambia (tried socialist principles) ---> economic ruin. South Africa, Dabbling in socialist principles ----> economy running good at the moment, but leading economic and social indicators point to (you guessed it) economic ruin.

I don't think that socialism is the root of the problem. I agree that good governance is the one key to solving this problem. I also think that the problem is how the countries were set up. I believe that the colonial powers set these countries up to be weak and the colonial powers also did not make enough effort to give these countries enough of there resources back to stand on their own 2 feet.
It's just like in the play by George Bernard Shaw. "In order for Britain to be #1 the status quo must be maintained." Another good book to read about post colonialism in africa is a grain of wheat by Ngugi wa Thiongo.

	27-05-2005 07:38									#59
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There's smart land reform and there's stupid land reform. Post-WW II land reform in Japan, Korea and Taiwan worked out quite well and pretty much destroyed the parasitical rural landlord class. What's happening in Zimbabwe is stupid land reform and is making things worse for just about everyone involved.

	27-05-2005 07:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Pax It's just like in the play by George Bernard Shaw. "In order for Britain to be #1 the status quo must be maintained." Another good book to read about post colonialism in africa is a grain of wheat by Ngugi wa Thiongo.

Instead of reading a book, try living there. I did for six years.

I prefer primary source material, rather than rely on someone elses interpretation.