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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
Caligastia,
I definitely am not condoning stealing the land from innocent people. What I said was that the whites are/were benefitting from lands that were stolen from the African people that were already there prior to colonialism. I think it's unrealistic to emancipate/desegregate/deapartheid/grant independence or whatever and still leave the people in the same state as they were before gaining that so-called freedom. It was that way in the USA when they slaves were freed but continued to work on the same fields as there ancestors for the same white master. Black were not really free until over a hundred years later. The same can be said for almost every African country that was subjected to colonialism. They were greated independence but the Europeans still controlled the resources that were ill-gotten gains. It's not fair for the Blacks Africans to take this stolen property back but it's also not fair for the whites to continue to benefit from what was stolen. So what do we have? A ****ed up situation that needs to be resolved. I propose a program that will allow the whites to keep most of the land at the same time giving up a share to the blacks and also promoting programs to educate and provide economic stability to the blacks so that everyone in the country can I have equal opportunities and the country will be stronger as a whole. |
What does it matter which racial group the farmers belong to? And for the land to be "stolen" it has to be owned by someone first. Was the land in question actually being used for anything before nasty ole whitey came along and turned it into farmland? I doubt it. Chances are it was a barren wasteland. Who owned the land before it was supposedly "stolen"? Can anyone produce title deeds to prove their ancestors owned the land or are all claims based on some concept of racial ownership?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
So, Cali, you think there were no sendentary societies on these lands, the lived off them before the colonization? You think that no traditional village ever had a right on these lands? |
I don't know. Do you?
quote:
If they had been blacks, you'd have never created the thread. I think it matters quite a bit to you. |
It matters to me whenever someone of my racial group is persecuted because of their race, but if the farmers had been black, and driven off by whites who then let the land go to waste, I wouldn't support that either.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Where are the original white farmers? Oh wait, they're all DEAD AND GONE. I suppose Italy should pay Tunisia reparations for what Rome did to Carthage... |
Wow, like, is there a slight difference in time frames and situations, Wesley Crusher ?
" Land has been one of the most controversial issues in Zimbabwe for the past 100 years. The war to end white-ruled Rhodesia was fought largely over land. Robert Mugabe's guerrilla fighters, and the peasants who supported them, battled to regain the land seized from them by British colonists.
The Rhodesian regime systematically stripped the African population of the country's best land without paying any compensation. The Africans were confined to arid, marginal land, where the majority of Zimbabwe's people remain today. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/...,181162,00.html
" But the Land Apportionment Act of 1930 barred African land ownership outside the reserves, except in a special freehold purchase area. Africans not needed for labour on white farms were removed to the reserves, which became increasingly congested. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st...olonisation.stm
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I believe you on that. However, if it had been blacks being displaced by other blacks, you'd have never cared one notch, because you only care about race conflicts. |
What makes you think race conflicts are the only thing I care about? Certainly, they are the conflicts I find most interesting, and therefore pay more attention to, but that doesn't mean I don't care "one notch" about any other kind of conflict.
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Colon
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Antwerp, Colon's Chocolate Canard Country
Jan 1970
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
I don't think that socialism is the root of the problem. I agree that good governance is the one key to solving this problem. I also think that the problem is how the countries were set up. I believe that the colonial powers set these countries up to be weak and the colonial powers also did not make enough effort to give these countries enough of there resources back to stand on their own 2 feet.
It's just like in the play by George Bernard Shaw. "In order for Britain to be #1 the status quo must be maintained." Another good book to read about post colonialism in africa is a grain of wheat by Ngugi wa Thiongo. |
Well, explain Ethiopia then. Its border weren't arbitrarily set up, it was only "colonised" for 5 years, it was free to handle their domestic en economic matters as they pleased, and yet it is still limping on.
Last edited by Colon on 28-05-2005 at 01:11
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
The fact that you only create race threads and rugby threads? |
See! I care about rugby conflicts!
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:22
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Mugabe is what many can confidenty call scum, however I don't disagree with what he is currently doing.
Zimbabwe experienced a brain drain in the agriculture industry because of it's former policies. It has realised it's errors and seeks now to redress the balance by bringing back more capable farmers.
The decisions, which were obviously ridiculas, that were taken in the first place were awful but best not to get hung up on sunk costs.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by atomant
Instead of reading a book, try living there. I did for six years. 
I prefer primary source material, rather than rely on someone elses interpretation. |
Everytime I find myself interested in a place I can't just get up and move there to see what's going on. I'm sure that you would find it acceptable to take the word of a person who lived there his whole life just as you find your 6 years of experience qualify you as an authority on the subject. In other words, the book trumps 6 years.
Last edited by Pax on 28-05-2005 at 01:16
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Should I have explicitly added [/sarcasm] tags? |
No, I think I should have added sarcasm tags.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Colon
Well, explain Ethiopia then. Its border weren't arbitrarily set up, it was only "coloniseded" for 5 years, it was free to handle their domestic en economic matters as they pleased, and yet it is still limping on. |
Colon, good post. In order to explain, agree, or concede I am wrong, I'm going to have to move to Ethiopia for about 6 years then get back to you. Just kidding. Let me read a little about about Ethiopa. Most of my studies have been about Northern Africa on the mediterrean, Kenya, Zimbabwe, South Africa, and certain West African Coast coast countries like the Gambia. Let me look into it. Still it seems a valid point.
I don't think that Africans or different from any other group in that in order to flourish they need self determination, good government, education, independence, and control over sufficient natural resources. I cannot say that Ethiopa definitely had these things. Thanks for making a serious point without resorting to SARCASM or INSULTS.
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BlackCat
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@pax
I think that some kind of redistribution of agricultural areas in Zimbabwe was needed, but I can't really figure out how you think that it should be done. Clearly, some of the "white" land were previous "black", but much was also new farmed.
How will you draw the linies, and is it enough that black africans take the land or is it should it be descendants of those that primaryly lost it ?
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atomant
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Aussie, no longer lost in Africa
Jul 2002
time: 15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
Everytime I find myself interested in a place I can't just get up and move there to see what's going on. I'm sure that you would find it acceptable to take the word of a person who lived there his whole life just as you find your 6 years of experience qualify you as an authority on the subject. In other words, the book trumps 6 years. |
No, I base my opinion on life experience, the people I met and talked to there, the people i consider some the best people in the world, black or white and everything in between. I also base my assessment on not just six years, but the fact that I also incorporate my wifes experiences, who is a Zimbabwean, who is black and is one of the 'Born Free generation' born after independence. I also base my opinion on those of her family, who lost businesses because they could not pay the squeeze required by the government to function. Additionally, before I went into banking and finance, I was a reporter for Reuters, guess where I was based and guess what i reported on?
I do not take the opinion of a single person or a single book, I took the opinion of many. If you asked any Zimbabwean, right now today, where they would rather live, 9 out of ten would say anywhere, but Zimbabwe. I have never claimed to be an expert (by defintion an EX is a has been and a SPURT is a drip under pressure), I claim to have experienced the situation very recently, personally and brutally.
Yes the colonial powers commited serious crimes, however that does not give Mugabe the right to do the same (I suggest you expand your reading to include the Matabeleland Masacres in the mid 80's). Mugabe is supposed to have seven degress from various universities, one being in history, he apparently did not learn anything
But to get this thread back on topic, the government needs to do a number of things to get things back on track economically.
1) Release the exchange rate (yes the ZWD will collapse, but it will sort itself out based on the value of goods and srvices produced or requried)
2) Release interest rates. (yes they will sky rocket, companies will close, but these same companies will be rebought, recapitalised and reopen eventually) Further higher interest rates will remove speculative borrowing and lower inflation as people will be getting a return on bank deposits.
3) Slash the civil service by at least 50% and restructure the budget so as 99% of government expenditure is not recurrent.
4) Live within your means (ie don't buy a stretch s600 mercedes when 30% of your population requires food aid.)
5) Pay fair compensation. The British government have said they will fund reform if the land reform process is free and transparent. The government of Zimbabwe calls this interfering with its sovereignity (forgive spelling) If i give someone money, I want to know it is being spent on a good cause, why should governments be any different?
6) Introduce good governance.
The are many more things to do, restructure debt etc etc etc, but doing these things would restore order and balance. A classic exmaple is the Zambia and Mozambique economies, both of which sucked in there guts, made hard decisions and are now reaping economic rewards. When I first arrived in Zimbabwe, one ZWD would buy 150 Zambian Kwacha (ZMK). Now one ZMK will buy you five ZWD.
However, the central problem in Zimbabwe remains one persons greed and desire to hang onto power, even if it means destroying his own country.
In closing, if people want to read about Zimbabwe, www.zimbabwesituation.com provides good uptodate reports from a number of sources, and there are some excellent books out there as well. But do not limit your knowledge to one book or person. An individual who bases an opinion on one source, usually provides a very limited arguement.
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Pax
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Atomant,
I absolutely agree with you and the ideas you have to make things better in Zimbabwe. I also agree that Mugabe is corrupt and needs to be removed from office by the PEOPLE of Zimbabwe. I just think that there are problems in Africa that have more than a single source of failure. It's not going to work to replace Mugabe with another tyrant or puppet.
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BlackCat
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It seems that Mr Mugabe keeps up the good work 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4598645.stm
quote:
More than 22,000 people have been arrested in the recent crackdown on Zimbabwe's shantytowns, a police spokesman has told state media.
He said some of those made homeless when their shacks were demolished in the capital, Harare, were being sent back to their rural homes.
Residents and riot police clashed overnight in the second city, Bulawayo.
Meanwhile, the head of the World Food Programme has discussed Zimbabwe's food needs with President Robert Mugabe.
'Choking'
Millions of people are suffering from food shortages and Mr Mugabe told James Morris he would "welcome" food aid, Mr Morris said.
Minibus queue in Harare
Fuel shortages make it difficult for people to leave the cities
Last year, Mr Mugabe asked the WFP to scale down its operations, saying Zimbabweans had so much food, "they were choking".
Mr Mugabe's critics say the shortages have been caused by his seizure of white-owned land.
He denies this, blaming the weather and a Western plot to remove him from power.
Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai said that the crackdown had created overnight, "a massive internal refugee population in its urban areas."
"Property worth millions of dollars has gone up in flames. Families are out in the open - without jobs, without income, without shelter without support," said the leader of the Movement for Democratic Change, which gets most of its support from urban areas.
The government says it is trying to reduce crime and clean up the Zimbabwe's cities.
Market vendors and local residents fought with police for more than two hours in Bulawayo's Makholkhoba suburb on Tuesday night, after their stalls had been demolished. Scores of people were injured.
War on poverty
The crackdown on illegal settlements in Harare and other cities has led to a huge increase in rents of up to 300%, reports the state-run Herald newspaper.
Market stalls have been set on fire and shacks knocked down with sledgehammers.
"We have so far arrested a total of 22,735 people and recovered 33.5kg of gold from 47 illegal gold panners and 26,000 litres of fuel," said Assistant Commissioner Wayne Bvudzijena.
Hundreds of thousands of people are reported to be homeless following a police operation in several cities that began last week.
But fuel shortages are making it difficult for people to travel to rural areas and escape the crackdown.
The National Pastors' Conference called on the government to "engage in a war against poverty and not against the poor".
Use the form to send us your comments on this story.
Street vendors can be seen in most African cities. Some see them as an eyesore who contribute to petty crime. Others say they are working hard to survive in difficult conditions.
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27-05-2005 07:59
(the "without resorting to SARCASM or INSULTS" bit your post there)
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