14-05-2005 23:50									#1
	Discussion on the Japan civs Remove this text

The Japan conquest is a rather unusual one. Unlike all the other conquests, no civs have any traights nor are there truely any unique units. In addition, there are no units that would triger a GA.

But, to get a GA, one just needs to build a great wonder. Any will do, but it will have to be built normally because Scientific Leaders are off.

This conquest does featured specific historic starting locations, which are vetoable to a human, but not the AI.

As I recall, there are 18 civs:

Three on their own island southwest of everybody.

Two on their own island south of the main one and east of the three civ island.

Thirteen civs on the main island. Of these, some are isolated, others are crowded; some are no where near fresh water, others start on it.

Eight of these civs are normally human playable.
The other ten are normally AI only. At least two of them are AI only because their starting positions are just too good. Most of the others have the poorest starting positions of all.

I've included screen shots of the 8 normally human playable.

And also note that nobody starts with any techs.

Last edited by joncnunn on 26-05-2005 at 18:47

	15-05-2005 23:19									#2
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Date:

Extreme NE on the main land.
Nearest fresh water is several tiles south.

(That is saltwater NE)

Appears to be the most difficult normally human playable civ.

Attachment: date.jpg
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Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:31

	15-05-2005 23:23									#3
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Hojo

Extreme East, [southern one], along a river.

Attachment: hojo.jpg
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	15-05-2005 23:27									#4
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Imagawa

Easterly, along south coast. Lots of hills, a good distance from water to the west, water fairly close to the north.

Attachment: imagawa.jpg
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	15-05-2005 23:33									#5
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Miyoshia

Centrally located, that water to the northeast is fresh water

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	15-05-2005 23:36									#6
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Mori

Western most civ on the main island, starts adjoining a one tile fresh water lake

Attachment: mori.jpg
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	15-05-2005 23:40									#7
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Oda

Centrally located, fresh water just west of screen shot, several grass land shield tiles just NE of screen shot.

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	15-05-2005 23:44									#8
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Takeda

Easterly civ near north coast along one of the bigger rivers.
(It is on a grassland shield, we might want to help out the AI by relocating them NW off the shield)

Appears to be the easyist normally human playable civ.

Attachment: takeda.jpg
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Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:30

	15-05-2005 23:48									#9
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Uesugi

Extreme East - Central

River just south of screen shot. 2 Goody huts next to each other just NE, another Goody Hut nearby south.

Attachment: uesugi.jpg
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	15-05-2005 23:55									#10
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Ryuzoji : Northern most of the three on the SW island

Otomo: Central one of the three on the SW island

Shimazu: Souther most of three on the SW island

Same fresh water source for all three, northern one at a disadvantage trying to get to it.

	15-05-2005 23:58									#11
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Ichijo: Western one of the two on the South Island

Chosokabe: Eastern one of the two on the South Island

Fresh water is half way between them. But Chosokabe has a huge edge on goody hut locations

	16-05-2005 00:01									#12
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Urakami: Westerly, move a unit onto the mountain SW to spot the fresh water lake. In fact, we might want to help out the AI if we don't play them by moving them onto the plains along this lake.

Appear to be about as difficult as the Date.

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:27

	16-05-2005 00:03									#13
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Matsunaga: Just south of Miyoshia, which have them crowded in, and difficult to reach anyone else without passing thru them.

Closest fresh water access is in land that bound to be Miyoshia owned.

Appear to be the most difficult main island civ to play.

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:27

	16-05-2005 00:06									#14
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Saito: Central along north coast just west of a river. If we don't play them, we should move them east to the river to help them out.

Appear to be about as difficult as the Date.

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:28

	16-05-2005 00:08									#15
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Tokguawa : Centrally located along a river. Historic winner of this conquest. Position way too good to consider playing as a human.

Appears to be even easier than the Takeda.

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:29

	16-05-2005 00:12									#16
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Mogami : Extreme east along western coast. Closest fresh water several tiles north and several tiles east. Both sites may be contested.

Appears to be somewhat more difficult than the Date

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 19:29

	16-05-2005 01:35									#17
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I think they are all good enough. The only thing important is to choose whether we want a relatively peaceful game (starting on the edge of the map), or war all the time (starting closer to the middle). We can use game difficulty to adjust accordingly (set it higher with an easy location, or lower with a difficult one).

That being said, I think we should follow history, and pick the Tokugawa. I fail to see how their position is good. If we set the difficulty level high enough, the central position would get boxed in pretty fast, making the game rather challenging.

	16-05-2005 10:57									#18
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Takeda is relatively easy. I remember I have connected two luxuries very fast, thus decreasing the difficulty with two levels regarding the citizens' mood.

And the production bonus of the AI was compensated with other factors

	16-05-2005 19:25									#19
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Actually, the Date [the northeastern extreme most civ on the main island] should be a big war mongler. If they stay peaceful, their city sizes are going to be very low due to mostly plains / hills + no fresh water access.

Yes, the Mori [the western most civ on the main island] are in great position to be peaceful. A human playing them should be able to block out the AI quickly and also claim all spots west before the island civs get a foothold. (Failing that, a limited war to kick them out]

Agreed on the Takeda being easy for the same reasons ormuzd gave. In addition, almost all my cities had several river tiles and I won that easily without going to war with anyone. I claimed all the luxaries near them before the AI, and that brought in all resources. Now I did have one trick up my sleve to stay at peace, multiple mobile walls, that evenually became one very large mobile wall covering most of my border, with just enough openings to keep the AI moving in a futile attempt to try to sneak attack a city.

Tokugawa have lots of river tiles on their starting location and just north, plus grassland shields to their NE.

The most challenging civs in this one are any of the five on smaller islands. The most challenging one on the mainland is the Matsunaga. They are crammed in at the start.

Last edited by joncnunn on 16-05-2005 at 22:26

	17-05-2005 09:54									#20
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thanks for all this info Jon

	20-05-2005 22:32									#21
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Looks like I'm going to have to play a quick game or 6 to decide. Good thing it's Friday!

	23-05-2005 13:23									#22
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The Hojo are good

	24-05-2005 19:38									#23
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Note that this poll assumes the mod to non-playable [currently deadlocked] passes. (I guess in this one case, dead-lock should be resolved in favor of the option)

Voting for the Ryuzoji, which I think is most challenging of all.

	24-05-2005 19:40									#24
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Hojo, for the sake of roleplay. We can still make the game more demanding by placing a code of law (houserules) upon ourselves.

	25-05-2005 21:29									#25
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Hum, if the current distrubtion patern continues [Hojo 5, 2, all other choices 0 or 1], we might not need a runoff.

While the Hojo do have fresh water at the start, they don't have the numerous resources [luxary / bonsus] the others do. (Not even grassland shields)

	25-05-2005 21:42									#26
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I'm thinking difficulty level next, and then houserules.

If we're playing this on Sid level, I don't think we'll need any house rules. (Remember we've already overwhelmingly voted for regicide off)

quote: Originally posted by Micha Hojo, for the sake of roleplay. We can still make the game more demanding by placing a code of law (houserules) upon ourselves.

	26-05-2005 07:50									#27
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Sid... wow

we will be wiped out... hehe

more a slaughter than a game

	26-05-2005 12:36									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot Sid... wow we will be wiped out... hehe more a slaughter than a game

It played good enough on Deity, but only with one of the stronger civs. Since the Hojo seem to be winning at the moment, Sid might be an option.

We will just need to remember to be ready for one thing: Building the War Council wonder or capturing it as fast as possible after it is built. I lost the scenario, even though my military was enough to conquer Japan, because some small far-away AI was voted to rule the nation...

	26-05-2005 13:11									#29
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yes indeed matey, but this is a game with many players, and not always with the same long term plans...

also we are not all the accomplished player that you are old chap

	26-05-2005 13:16									#30
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I would say Emperor or Demigod should do it alright, regardless of the civ. One needs only to start the core running in this scenario, and the territory will be fairly small. After that it is mostly unit building all the way, until victory...