24-05-2005 21:41									#1
	What happened to Firaxis? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Soren seems to think "less micromanagement" is a good thing, specifically with regards to removing corruption. How can he think that yer average TBS player wants less micromanagement and not more? The all time great Firaxis game, Alpha Centauri, was the best precisely because it allowed huge amounts of micromanagement. Civ III was a massive backward step, dumbing down to an incredible degree. Don't they learn from their mistakes?

Speaking of mistakes, can't they get a real graphics design team? More of the same stupid Civ III cartoon graphics, makes it look like Stan Lee bought the company and created Marvelization.

Has anyone heard anything to indicate that one day we might see another genius release, an Alpha Centauri II (even if it is set in the Civ Line of games)?

Last edited by Fitz on 25-05-2005 at 06:56

	24-05-2005 21:47									#2
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Yes, they are.

	24-05-2005 21:54									#3
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Micromanagement, per se, is not neccessarily a good thing. For instance, I fail to see how moving 50 workers each turn is a good thing, if you could simply assign the tile improvements you want built. Civ4 apparently still has enough stuff you can manage if you want to.

	24-05-2005 21:59									#4
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Your post is funnier if you read it with the Comic Book Guy voice from the Simpsons.

Relax. I didn't particularly enjoy moving my stack of workers from polluted square to polluted square in the endgame. Building roads and irrigation was ok, because you're deciding the placement of those things.

Their point is to remove the busywork and let you play the game, and I applaud them for that.

	24-05-2005 22:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Mahdimael Your post is funnier if you read it with the Comic Book Guy voice from the Simpsons.

Hey, good idea. It is funnier. =)

Less micromanagement was used in regards to corruption as well as pollution. I can see yer issue with having to move huge stacks of workers every turn though.

I'm just annoyed because Civ 3 was a huge step back in flexibility from SMAC. They removed unit options, government options, and building options. They put in cartoonish graphics. They made a dumbed down game that was like watching a train wreck. And it looks like they are trying to do it again.

	24-05-2005 22:12									#6
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Nah, it does look like they are actually putting more options in Civ4. Like the promotion and civics stuff.

They referred to removing unfun elements like corruption and pollution. Pollution was, indeed, horrible in Civ3. Wasted your time and didn't do anything to the gameplay. Corruption wasn't much better either.

	24-05-2005 22:17									#7
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*cof* *cof* SMAC is SMAC and CIV is CIV. Dont compare. They have added nice features and removed or tweaked nasty ones like pollution and corruption.

	24-05-2005 22:22									#8
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Is Fitz stupid?

	24-05-2005 22:35									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No personal attacks please, guys -- not on Firaxis, not on each other. It's fine if you disagree but that's no reason to start bashing.

	24-05-2005 22:36									#10
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They made enough cash-money from civ3 despite it being steaming turds, i wouldnt call that stupid.

	25-05-2005 00:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus No personal attacks please, guys -- not on Firaxis, not on each other. It's fine if you disagree but that's no reason to start bashing.

I agree with Darth Moderator about personal attacks between members of Apolyton, it's useless.

When it comes to attacks against Firaxis, I don't care. It's just some kind of... rhetoric. By telling that they are a bunch of a s s h o l e s, the initiator of this thread just wanted to make clear, in an affectionate way, that he disagreed with them about ways and means to make an enjoyable game. That's all.

And when we say that Apolyton managers are a bunch of ****, what happens ?

	25-05-2005 00:58									#12
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quote: And when we say that Apolyton managers are a bunch of ****, what happens ?

You get banned and your house gets destroyed by a cruise missile from either Thessaloniki or Ontario.

	25-05-2005 01:10									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

you mean that Greece actually has Cruise Missiles? Then why did Markos spend a year with the artillery?

	25-05-2005 01:48									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by M. le Comte When it comes to attacks against Firaxis, I don't care.

a) They are people too, they deserve the same kind of respect the rest of us deserve. Maybe even a little bit more, as they go out and actually make games, something most of us here have yet to proof we are capable of (yours truly included).

b) Would you like them to stop coming here altogether? (Which indicentally, many of them already have)

Don't get me wrong, contructive criticism is fine. You can disagree with their choices, point out their mistakes, even call them bad designers (if you can back it up). Believe me, I've done all of those things in excess myself. But there's no need for namecalling. Not only is it disrespectful, it just invalidates what might otherwise be a perfectly valid point...

quote: in an affectionate way

A fan of tough love, I see...

quote: And when we say that Apolyton managers are a bunch of ****, what happens ?

Essentially the same thing that happens when you say that of anyone else: depending on the context, usually you first get a warning or two, but if you keep it up you eventually get banned. But believe me, the owners and mods of Apolyton (particularly the OT) put up with a hell of a lot more abuse directed against themselves than they tolerate when it's directed against others.

	25-05-2005 04:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz Hey, good idea. It is funnier. =)

You'd be surprised just how well it works when reading Star Wars forums

quote: Less micromanagement was used in regards to corruption as well as pollution. I can see yer issue with having to move huge stacks of workers every turn though. I'm just annoyed because Civ 3 was a huge step back in flexibility from SMAC. They removed unit options, government options, and building options. They put in cartoonish graphics. They made a dumbed down game that was like watching a train wreck. And it looks like they are trying to do it again.

Remember that Civ begat SMAC. The unit options in SMAC were cool, but how often did you really make a unique unit? More often than not, you add the best armor and weapon to a frame and go. On the other hand, I thought satellites were a fantastic idea from SMAC, and the Planetary Council should go directly into Civ4 as the UN. As for cartoonish graphics, well, that has been a staple of the game since it's inception. Do you remember the angry villagers behind the other leaders in Civilization? Or the ridiculous and over-the-top advisors in Civ2? It's not a game that takes itself too seriously, and neither should you

	25-05-2005 04:21									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Mahdimael It's not a game that takes itself too seriously, and neither should you

Indeed. Check out this Civilization screenshot:

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/s...ameShotId,2906/

	25-05-2005 04:46									#18
	Re: What happened to Firaxis? Are they Stupid? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Fitz The all time great Firaxis game, Alpha Centauri, was the best precisely because it allowed huge amounts of micromanagement.

It allowed huge amounts of micromanagement, but that didn't make the game better in all cases
The micromanagement with the units was hell. Every time I got a new something to put on my units the game automaticly added 10 new units to the unit-list, within short time this list was impossible to keep track of. I had to spend a lot of time to delete useless units that I knew I would never use anyway. In the end I decided not to bother deleting the units, but just try to keep an eye the units I need, which always ends up with me only creating certain units (I believe I've only created like 5% of the units the game has to offer)
Maybe I could get used to it if I played more games, but it really scares away new people to the game. I remember the first time I tried the game back when it was new (and then when the XP was released) both times the unit workshop scared me away because I had to waste way too much time trying to find my way around the workshop

I have now finished about 5-6 games, but only because I was told to check out the game because of it's government model (which I didn't see the first times I played theg game). If they had used units the same way as in Civ games the number of finished games would defently be much higher






Not sure if the above makes sense... but anyway, the point was that micromanagement doesn't always make the game better

	25-05-2005 04:51									#19
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Well, there is that option to disable auto prototyping in SMAC...

	25-05-2005 05:38									#20
	Re: What happened to Firaxis? Are they Stupid? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Fitz The all time great Firaxis game, Alpha Centauri, was the best precisely because it allowed huge amounts of micromanagement.

Go play SW: Rebellion and say that with a straight face...

If you want MM up the wazoo, play Victoria, not Civ.

	25-05-2005 06:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus No personal attacks please, guys -- not on Firaxis, not on each other. It's fine if you disagree but that's no reason to start bashing.

Title of the thread edited. Edit: Make that, I tried to. ::sigh::

	25-05-2005 07:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Mahdimael The unit options in SMAC were cool, but how often did you really make a unique unit? More often than not, you add the best armor and weapon to a frame and go.

All the time. I usually used "shells", which were the lowest mineral cost units possible to build (not always the lowest armor/weapon depending on reactor). Then I designed units to upgrade those shells to, depending on what my oponents had (no point in upgrading to the best/best armor/weapon if they were 4 steps behind you).

quote: On the other hand, I thought satellites were a fantastic idea from SMAC, and the Planetary Council should go directly into Civ4 as the UN.

Satellites might be a bit of a stretch unless future tech was taken to its limit. But yeah, the UN in civ 3 is another example of dumbed down methedology.

quote: As for cartoonish graphics, well, that has been a staple of the game since it's inception. Do you remember the angry villagers behind the other leaders in Civilization? Or the ridiculous and over-the-top advisors in Civ2? It's not a game that takes itself too seriously, and neither should you

Problem is, it makes it really hard to see what is going on (at least in Civ 3), and the screen shots from Civ IV look even worse. What is the point in making a bunch of graphics that detract from your ability to play the game?

	25-05-2005 08:13									#23
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Fitz:

None of us here can start whining about the graphics. It's still 6 months till release.

I can pretty much guarentee the entire graphics in the game will be changed between now and then.

So wait till we see some "gold" or release shots before having a cry.

Dale

	25-05-2005 12:10									#24
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The graphics are looking excellent, I fail to see your reason for complaint. Especially as you have no way to substantiate your complaints as you cannot possibly be in a position to judge a game that is not yet released!!

	25-05-2005 12:40									#25
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I should point out, Fritz, that pollution and corruption are not OUT of the game, they are merely represented differently-namely as the broad definition on city health. As I understand it, building near certain terrains, building certain city improvements, having population outstrip infrastructure and possibly even exceeding OCN or building far from your capital will all effect a city's health. However, instead of giving you lots of goo to clean up, or making your outer cities utterly useless, it will effect both your population growth and happiness-which can effect the overall productivity of your city, but in a way that can be solved without needless MM. To me, I think that makes WAY more sense than the system used in past games.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	25-05-2005 13:37									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dale Fitz: None of us here can start whining about the graphics. It's still 6 months till release. I can pretty much guarentee the entire graphics in the game will be changed between now and then. So wait till we see some "gold" or release shots before having a cry. Dale

The graphics will not change much anymore.
Fortunately, since they look perfect.

Firaxis wouldn't have given some much (enthousiastic) previews of the game if the graphics were far from finished. (one reason for why you didn't saw modern-age graphics, they're not finished yet)

	25-05-2005 14:17									#27
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SMAC is their greatest game?
Greatest among hardcore-er players maybe, but among the millions of others I doubt. Civ3 was a backstep for those more in the SMAC area of the market. See Soren's PowerPoint if you wanna see what they say about it.

The point of Civ4 seems to be the MORE content as possible, in the LEAST form as possible. Not bad... if they succeed in having less form (management, etc.), then it might permit more actual content globally. And a game built for everyone, since there is a market for those other people which they do not need to let go to another "Electronic Art" always-the-same-with-more-form(graphics...).

And as Locutus said, personal attacks do not bring anything. Firaxis people are not "supposed" to think the same. And I don't think that their disagreement is coming from their "stupidity".

	25-05-2005 14:20									#28
	Re: What happened to Firaxis? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Fitz Soren seems to think "less micromanagement" is a good thing, specifically with regards to removing corruption. How can he think that yer average TBS player wants less micromanagement and not more? The all time great Firaxis game, Alpha Centauri, was the best precisely because it allowed huge amounts of micromanagement. Civ III was a massive backward step, dumbing down to an incredible degree. Don't they learn from their mistakes? Speaking of mistakes, can't they get a real graphics design team? More of the same stupid Civ III cartoon graphics, makes it look like Stan Lee bought the company and created Marvelization. Has anyone heard anything to indicate that one day we might see another genius release, an Alpha Centauri II (even if it is set in the Civ Line of games)?

You're probably a very skilled player. Only very hard core fans grumble on the lack of mm'g in C3C.

But Sorensen and Firaxis are aiming for a broader base of players in C4 who overall dislike mm'g. So on the one hand you have a small bunch of hard core fans who demand more mm'g and on the other you have a wider base of players who dislike mm'g.

They are making money, you know ? So If they produced a heavily mm'g game very few poeple would buy it, mostly hard core fans, they would lose money and would close down the civ saga.

So as it is thet are not stupid, but rather bright people who are aiming for a broader base of clients/players including the small bunch of hard core fans.

Most people complain in CivIII because there is far too much mm'g: pollution, moving workers, corruption, using combat calculators to figure out the odds ...

You must look at the commercial bottomline of the franchise, only If they make money will the franchise continue with new installments.

What you propose of increasing the mm'g would kill off civilization.

	25-05-2005 18:08									#29
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quote: Civ III was a massive backward step, dumbing down to an incredible degree. Don't they learn from their mistakes? Speaking of mistakes, can't they get a real graphics design team? More of the same stupid Civ III cartoon graphics, makes it look like Stan Lee bought the company and created Marvelization.

We have a new Coracle!!

	25-05-2005 18:50									#30
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As far as I can see, Firaxis is making a good effort in attempting to maintain and present complexity (civics = social engineering, multiple types of Tile improvements, a much deeper unit promotion system that will create much variety in unit type, a Religion system that appears to be inspired by the CTP model and even builds upon the concepts that appeared in CTP) Areas such as trade are more fully developed than they were in civ3, and more variety is added to GLs.

In short, I think we will have the culmination of the civ experience that embraces civ1-civ3, SMAC and CTP.

My only concern/hope is that the busywork and repetitive micromanagement (i.e. worker and unit movement, single unit combat) are fixed with effective means that cut out the tedium factor when you have a lot of those units on the map (Well-designed grouping commands please????)