25-05-2005 09:46									#1
	Why did Guderian, Rommel et al. continue fighting when aware of Nazi evils? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am supposed to write a speech on a person and I chose Heinz Guderian. I was somewhat surprised when I was told to "tread carefully" when researching and coming up with my presentation, considering Guderian was not charged with war crimes and was looked down because he was not a Nazi.

Yet joncha brought up a solid point.

quote: jon. says: well... you also need to address why he continued serving the regime Frozzy says: Why did Rommel? jon. says: that will be the question they ask, though jon. says: same goes for Rommel, too jon. says: "if he's such a nice guy, why didn't he resign? Frozzy says: Because he was a soldier. jon. says: not good enough jon. says: and that's where you need to be careful [...] jon. says: and their actions supported a regime that did Frozzy says: A case of the few blotching the record of the many right? jon. says: no jon. says: even the "good" ones were in support of the wrong jon. says: and should have known better

So? If Rommel and Guderian are considered "good WWII Germans", why did they continue fighting?

	25-05-2005 09:49									#2
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Why did Colin Powell go along with the Neo-con agenda?

	25-05-2005 09:51									#3
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because they believe that patriotism is the be all and end all. we can see how dangerous being a patriot can be, especially when you are misguided like many of americas conservaties who toss that word around like its nothing.

	25-05-2005 10:04									#4
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quote: So? If Rommel and Guderian are considered "good WWII Germans", why did they continue fighting?

Rommel didn't, or did you miss the bit where he was forced to commit suicide after being implicated in the July '44 plot to topple Hitler?

As for Guderian, he was shuffled off from important posts. At one point he was retired, but was brought back to push papers as a superintendant of mobile forces, or some such. I do not recall him doing anything of significance after 1941, but there may be something I am forgetting.

	25-05-2005 10:10									#5
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Wasn't Rommel told by a friend never to go near a concentration camp? Read a tory about this once but don't have a link or anything. Anyway, he never did visit one and resisted invitations iirc.


Also, he was in France, africa, sick, and occupied France. Most camps were in Germany and Poland.

	25-05-2005 10:17									#6
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The question of who knew what is a good one.

An equally good question would be how many Germans paid with their lives to resist.

	25-05-2005 10:18									#7
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... and why they did it.

	25-05-2005 10:19									#8
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I think they had an idea about being honorable and true to their people. It may have been wrong, but I believe that they liked being soldiers and thought that they were doing it for their country more than a regime.

But you're right, why would they support the Nazis? Wouldn't the fact that people were being exterminated weigh more than "God and country"?

	25-05-2005 10:30									#9
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quote: Rommel didn't, or did you miss the bit where he was forced to commit suicide after being implicated in the July '44 plot to topple Hitler?

That is slightly different. If you are told to commit suicide, or go in front of a trial which will in all likelyhood sentence you to death by pianowire hanging, I'll take the quick cyanide death any time...

	25-05-2005 10:32									#10
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quote: I do not recall him doing anything of significance after 1941, but there may be something I am forgetting.

Chief of the OKH? Not majorly major, but he did that after being appointed inspector of the mobile forces.

	25-05-2005 10:32									#11
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Being dead is different in what way?

	25-05-2005 10:34									#12
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quote: Why did Colin Powell go along with the Neo-con agenda?

Because fighting tyrants in the name of democracy is the moral course of action.

	25-05-2005 10:36									#13
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quote: So? If Rommel and Guderian are considered "good WWII Germans", why did they continue fighting?

If they stopped they and thier families would be killed by the nazis. That would motivate me right quickly to fight for evil.

	25-05-2005 10:37									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius Chief of the OKH? Not majorly major, but he did that after being appointed inspector of the mobile forces.

In late '44 when Hitler was giving all the orders from the bunker.

You are right though. Why would he have agreed to serve again after being cashiered in late '41?

I wouldn't like to guess at his motives or his knowledge of what was going on.

have you checked out his memoirs? I have not read them, but they could be important to your project.

	25-05-2005 10:38									#15
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quote: If they stopped they and thier families would be killed by the nazis. That would motivate me right quickly to fight for evil.

Would you fight for the Nazis if they said they could teach you how to save your wife?

	25-05-2005 10:40									#16
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quote: Would you fight for the Nazis if they said they could teach you how to save your wife?

If my wife wanted me to, yes.

	25-05-2005 10:42									#17
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What if she didn't? What if fighting for the Nazis would break her heart?

	25-05-2005 11:12									#18
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Guderian is falling over himself in 'Panzer General' explaining that he has serving the vaterland and staying true to soldiers honour. I'd tend to believe him - delaying the inevitable misery that Soviet occupation would bring to Germany (i'm not judging the Soviets here) was in my opinion (based on his book) what drove him to fight on.

	25-05-2005 11:15									#19
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Well, the general reason seems to be keeping the Oath all members of the German military took to the Fuhrer and the Fatherland. NOt to fight for the Nazi's would have been a case of breaking their oath.

	25-05-2005 11:17									#20
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That as well. GePap

	25-05-2005 11:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Why did Colin Powell go along with the Neo-con agenda?

Good point here, and one that I think may be helpful to bring up in the presentation.

I can't remember where I heard it, but there was someone who knew Powell well and explained his reasons for going along with what happened. Powell knew that war with Iraq was inevitable and there was nothing he could do to stop it. Perhaps this was in the Frontline investigation.

He and many of his peers had spent their whole careers forming what was known as the Powell Doctrine. They formed this Doctrine after studying Vietnam and why that war was such a disaster. They didn't want the US to ever repeat those mistakes.

Now, Powell was still close with many in the armed forces, who were would be called to duty when the war in Iraq went down. He wanted to give them the best chance possible to suceed, and he knew that they would have a better fighting chance as long as he was involved in the whole thing as possible. In the end, it really comes down to what all you military guys always tell me, is that it's about protecting the guys next to you. Powell simply wanted to protect his people, who were going to be put in harm's way.

It really had nothing to do with Saddam Hussein or the neo-con agenda.

He was being a good soldier.

	25-05-2005 12:24									#22
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Thanks a lot guys, especially Saras and GePap. Very strong points there. I really should try to ruffle up a copy of Panzer General to help me out

	25-05-2005 12:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us If they stopped they and thier families would be killed by the nazis. That would motivate me right quickly to fight for evil.

Except that Guderian and was fired after arguing too much against Hitler. Neither he nor his family were killed by the Nazis.

Several other generals stood up to Hitler and were fired, but not executed.

The idea that the generals had no choice is a myth.

	25-05-2005 13:11									#24
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Why do we keep driving SUV's, even though we know it creates climate change that will cause the deaths of millions?

	25-05-2005 14:57									#25
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@ Drake

	25-05-2005 15:42									#26
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Guderian's whole experience was about rebuilding the role of Germany after the Versailles Diktat. All his work between the world wars was to that end - restoring German pride and removing the military weakness of Germany that Versailles had enforced. Also there was a fair amount of popular support for Hitler for his promises to restore Germany. So it should not be any surprise that Guderian worked wholeheartedly on building up and leading the panzer forces for the regime.

It only turned sour for Guderian in 1941 when he opposed the invasion of Russia. His acceptance of his later recall can be seen purely as patriotism in trying to defend his country, rather than defend the Nazi party.

Patriotism is a two edged sword. Winston Churchill and Bomber Harris were patriots too, but they didn't go on trial for war crimes.

	25-05-2005 16:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither quote: So? If Rommel and Guderian are considered "good WWII Germans", why did they continue fighting? Rommel didn't, or did you miss the bit where he was forced to commit suicide after being implicated in the July '44 plot to topple Hitler? As for Guderian, he was shuffled off from important posts. At one point he was retired, but was brought back to push papers as a superintendant of mobile forces, or some such. I do not recall him doing anything of significance after 1941, but there may be something I am forgetting.

Rommel was Hitler's military aide during the invasion of Poland. Guderion was the head of panzer troops (iirc something like an inspector general of cavalry in times past) after Hitler stopped being mad at him for insubordination. He was largely responsible for the rebuilding of the German panzer forces after the losses in 1942 and was justifiably worried when Hitler started looking around for something to attack in 1943. IIRC the quote was something like, Mein Fuhrer, why do you want to attack anywhere this year?

	25-05-2005 17:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Except that Guderian and was fired after arguing too much against Hitler. Neither he nor his family were killed by the Nazis. Several other generals stood up to Hitler and were fired, but not executed. The idea that the generals had no choice is a myth.

Hitler executed Roehm and two generals who opposed him in 1934 and brutally put down the SA, so their fears weren't entirely ridiculous. The plotters against Hitler who were discovered fared rather poorly as well.

	25-05-2005 17:18									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild @ Drake

	25-05-2005 17:21									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: If they stopped they and thier families would be killed by the nazis. That would motivate me right quickly to fight for evil. Would you fight for the Nazis if they said they could teach you how to save your wife?