26-05-2005 00:21									#1
	Massive Single Player scenario Get a bigger avatar today!

Please forgive the partial repost of my CPT2 entry but I fully realise that this forum might well have a considerably larger membership than the CTP2 one.

So here goes ....

I understand that the CTP2 Editor permits one to make truly enormous maps (there is a truly gigantic World Map of circa 11 000 x 11000 tiles available for download at this site) while, by sharp contrast, the original (but considerably newer) Civ3 Editor is restricted to a paltry maximum of circa 250x250 tiles. Therefore, the above comparison suggests that the CTP2 Editor should provide the ambitious designer with the opportunity of creating a truly monumental scenario that might qualify as an authentic MSP (Massive Single Player) game. [Although this particular type of gaming experience will not be to everyone’s liking, it should enable a gamer the opportunity of playing at his/her own pace against the computer-generated ai for weeks (or even months) in a single titanic scenario (that would be fairly compatible in size to that of the average MMO game). This MSP format would be exempt from the seemingly ubiquitous MMO-specific problem of being attacked by opponents while one is asleep or otherwise occupied away from the game. In addition, this game format should be free of other potential negative human interactions].

Surely, I am not unique in my desire to experience the epic challenge of a true MSP scenario as I am (quite frankly) becoming extremely bored and increasingly frustrated by being basically forced to play multiple one or two hour long scenarios on postage-sized maps. I know that most of these commercial (RTS) games have been deliberately designed for the average teenage player with a severely limited attention span but what about the older and more committed player who would like a somewhat deeper and more expansive gaming experience. Imho, these “mass-market” games characterized by severely restricted maximum map sizes and population caps seriously lack ambition. They generally merely represent “fast food”-type games with “jaw-dropping” graphics and highly derivative gameplay options. It is these ultra high-tech graphics that require powerful graphics cards and processors as well as huge amounts of memory to run that have severely (possibly terminally) limited the ability of most developers to even consider the possibility of creating an authentic MSP game.

It should therefore hopefully be feasible to conduct ones empire building on a truly massive scale (and I am most certainly not advocating the type of unit “spawning” that occurs in the Cossacks and American Conquest series as the player must be required to work fairly hard for each unit created or building erected I an MSP game in order to derive maximum satisfaction from his/her game playing experience and exploits). The primary focus of the empire building strategy would demarcate the “builder-warrior” (one who prefers building new cities and structures) from the “warrior-builder” (one who prefers to create great armies often featuring a diverse selection of military units).

Before one could even attempt to create a meaningful MSP game from this capacity seemingly afforded by CTP2, it would be necessary to investigate what type of modifications would need to be introduced in order to facilitate optimal gameplay on a truly gigantic map. Indeed, it would seem a reasonable idea to restrict this proposed mega scenario to the Ancient and Medieval periods (not only to encourage a certain mystical ambience but also to prevent it from becoming bogged down in the way distant future as a direct result of its significantly enhanced longevity).

WILL THIS BE POSSIBLE WITH CIV 4?

	27-05-2005 13:21									#2
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Well it seems like it'd be possible. We know that there are ways to calibrate how many turns there are in the game and how fast different things are completed, the only other thing you need is a big-ass map and with the amount of customization that they're promising that should be doable...

	27-05-2005 14:35									#3
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Bosh:

Many thanks for your reply.

This certainly sounds most exciting .... now I am really looking forward to the release of Civ 4.

Hopefully one of the devs might be prepared to provide some definitive information in this regard.

	27-05-2005 14:56									#4
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However, you don't necessarily need a huge map to be able to have a very very long and fun single player scenario. You could just make tech take a very long time to research and everything except for military units (especially settles) take a very long time to build.

	27-05-2005 16:25									#5
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Bosh:

Yes .... that is indeed correct.

However, I must admit that I have a fairly interesting (and highly tactical) map design in mind that I would really like to be able to create as a (mega)scenaro for a top class commercial game (such as Civ 4).

It has been evolving for several years now .... so that it would be great to finally be able to not only just create it but also to test it (to see whether it is a viable proposition).

	27-05-2005 17:06									#6
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"The code for the AI and the game core will be available - I can't explain exactly what is in the game core but it's basically how the game runs and what makes it Civ. Adding terrain and eras will not be a problem."

	27-05-2005 17:20									#7
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Snoopy:

This is indeed very promising .... hopefully nothing important (such as map size, city number, population cap, etc.) has been hardcoded into the game engine.

If everything is freely open to manipulation and "ambitious" modding, Civ 4 could be the greatest game ever released. Imho, it is about high time that a truly "moddable" game without any inbuilt (and inevitably highly restrictive) limitations was released.

	27-05-2005 22:28									#8
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This might be the civ to end all civs.

Can you imagine what might happen once this is released?

Considering the number of modders out there who do nothing but mod Civ with a passion, I can't begin to imagine how many different kinds of Civilization games we will have access to.

It's a very very smart move on Firaxis part.

"Hey lets make Civ open-ended, that way, we don't have to keep making another Civilization to please the fans, and move on with our other dreams."

Good one!

	27-05-2005 22:39									#9
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Snoopy:

Hopefully there will be a way found to enable modders to insert ADDITIONAL material into Civ 4 rather than merely substitute existing Firaxis material with their own creations.

This would be truly awesome .... an expandible strategy game (like "The Sims", "Sim City" and "Zoo Tycoon"). Also, in this vein, it would be brilliant if several of these mods (additions) were to be designed to be FULLY compatible with one another.

With Civ 3, most of the mods were designed in an extremely random fashion .... maybe Apolyton can try to integrate the mods a bit so that the fans can actively help Apolyton to create a "true legend of our times".

"Firaxis and the Community working in harmony".

Last edited by Son of moose on 27-05-2005 at 23:16

	27-05-2005 23:31									#10
	Re: Massive Single Player scenario Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Son of moose I understand that the CTP2 Editor permits one to make truly enormous maps (there is a truly gigantic World Map of circa 11 000 x 11000 tiles available for download at this site) while, by sharp contrast, the original (but considerably newer) Civ3 Editor is restricted to a paltry maximum of circa 250x250 tiles. Therefore, the above comparison suggests that the CTP2 Editor should provide the ambitious designer with the opportunity of creating a truly monumental scenario that might qualify as an authentic MSP (Massive Single Player) game. [Although this particular type of gaming experience will not be to everyone’s liking, it should enable a gamer the opportunity of playing at his/her own pace against the computer-generated ai for weeks (or even months) in a single titanic scenario (that would be fairly compatible in size to that of the average MMO game). This MSP format would be exempt from the seemingly ubiquitous MMO-specific problem of being attacked by opponents while one is asleep or otherwise occupied away from the game. In addition, this game format should be free of other potential negative human interactions].

Except it would take a really long time to run, especially with 3d stuff.

	27-05-2005 23:42									#11
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Kuciwalker:

Yes .... 3D is most definitely a "doubled-edged blade".

Nevertheless, I am a very patient man.

	28-05-2005 01:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py This might be the civ to end all civs. Can you imagine what might happen once this is released? Considering the number of modders out there who do nothing but mod Civ with a passion, I can't begin to imagine how many different kinds of Civilization games we will have access to.

Well, it all depends on how easy it is to modify the game once it is released. Someone mentioned the CtP2 source code in the Community forum and how nothing much came out of that. That's (partly) because coding is not so easy.

Of course, since Civ4 will be a cool new game, and not an old one, more people will try their hand at modding it, but still, if it is restrictively hard (read: requires coding to accomplish anything), then not many will last to create anything worthwhile.

I am optimistic, however.

It would be really amazing to have the same amount of community activity as the Sims gets.

	28-05-2005 01:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vovan Well, it all depends on how easy it is to modify the game once it is released. Someone mentioned the CtP2 source code in the Community forum and how nothing much came out of that. That's (partly) because coding is not so easy.

Timing is everything...

I would argue that the audience was never really there - if the code had come out soon after the release of CTP2, there would be a lot more success in that area. This is not to say that there hasn't been any success, but unlike civ3, I really think that civ4 has the capabilities (based on potential) to bury CTP in this area - and saying this as an avid CTP2 player, I feel that civ4 will be the best civ game, bar none.

It just took Firaxis 5 years (and four attempts - civ3, PTW, C3C and civ4) to pull it off...

	28-05-2005 01:58									#14
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I'm not sure any personal computer is capable of running a game smoothly with a truly GIGANTIC map with 18 civilizations.

Unless you have the latest, most powerful personal computer on the market right now and you buy a new computer every four months.

	28-05-2005 02:04									#15
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MrFun:

quote: I'm not sure any personal computer is capable of running a game smoothly with a truly GIGANTIC map with 18 civilizations.

Indeed, it might well prove rather tricky right now even with a 3.0Ghz processor and 1.0 GB of memory. However, in two or three years time, it could well be an entirely different matter (remember Moore's Law). After all, CTP2 is now about 5 years old and was built with this massive extra capacity ....

	28-05-2005 02:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not sure any personal computer is capable of running a game smoothly with a truly GIGANTIC map with 18 civilizations. Unless you have the latest, most powerful personal computer on the market right now and you buy a new computer every four months.

Actually... I wonder...

I forget the details, but wasn't there some strategy game (Civ3 even maybe?) that would check your system specs, and depending on it would dumb the AI down on weaker computers, so the turns don't take that long.

	28-05-2005 02:09									#17
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What you're thinking of is GalCiv. It didn't actually do quite what you mentioned; what GalCiv did was detect whether your processor had hyperthreading and, if it did, ran AI algorithms in the background while you played your turn.

	28-05-2005 02:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Son of moose MrFun: Indeed, it might well prove rather tricky right now even with a 3.0Ghz processor and 1.0 GB of memory. However, in two or three years time, it could well be an entirely different matter (remember Moore's Law). After all, CTP2 is now about 5 years old and was built with this massive extra capacity ....

And five years later, that capacity still probably isn't usable.

	28-05-2005 07:14									#19
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Son of Moose, I was going to reply on my own, but Kuci beat me to it.

	28-05-2005 07:38									#20
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Actually its not the memory or the processing that will be the major concern.

This game will be relying on your gfx cards memory. I did some calculations and I think you would need a 128mb gfx card to run it smoothly.

64mb gfx card would run it ok, but not for long I assume.


Btw, it does not matter how big the map is; you only need to get the graphics loaded into memory. It only becomes a problem when there are a LOT of graphics to load. This shouldn't be a problem with the 3D engine however.

	28-05-2005 07:55									#21
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It's not just the map though. It's the AI too. IIRC the cost (in processing time) of intelligent AI unit control increases exponentially with map size.

	28-05-2005 12:06									#22
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That is true, Kuci.

Which is why when I play Civ 3 with my mod version, I do not allow for the maximum number of civilizations on my version of a huge map.

	28-05-2005 14:47									#23
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I'd love to play the ridiculously ultra-gigantic map with all of the civs and no limits to cities (or anything) but even something with the horsepower of IBM's Deep Blue would get tied in knots.

	28-05-2005 15:30									#24
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quote: I'd love to play the ridiculously ultra-gigantic map with all of the civs and no limits to cities (or anything) but even something with the horsepower of IBM's Deep Blue would get tied in knots.

Yes .... that would possibly seem to be the penalty for using such ambitious maps. [At least Deep Blue beat Gary Kasperov .... but not Sid Meier ].

However, it would be great if this option (of designing a "ridiculously ultra-gigantic map") were at least made available to the community.

	28-05-2005 18:31									#25
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i never played on anything bigger than 120x on civ3,the 250x250 was so big that even with all civs,there was so much space and so little fighting,it was a snore fest(world map)

how many civs would you have on a map this big,500? and why would managing thousands of citys and billions of units be any fun? just be a constant clickfest....if you want that why dont you play some rpg's ?

	28-05-2005 18:54									#26
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Cataphract887

I would envisage a fair amount of impassable mountain terrain in my proposed megascenario .... so that it would actually be a fairly tactical map with plenty of exploration involved.

Consequently, there would not necessarily have to be quite so many civs (especially), cities and units. Nevertheless, it would potentially represent a major challenge trying to build up a large number of cities and a massive number of units (hopefully most of the military units could be successfully "fortified" in order to prevent the type of "clickfest" that you highlight). [I am certainly not a keen RPG player .... but rather a CB (City Builder) fan who would like to combine some serious city (and empire) building along with some expansionist military-related activity (i.e. the "Builder-Warrior")].

It seems that Civ 4 should possibly reward this "Builder-Warrior" (as opposed to the pure warrior) philosophy with ones individual city structures becoming clearly visible on the game map. I am an eminently patient person and don't mind the quieter periods between the occasional major battle (as opposed to a skirmish) where one can successfully build up ones cities, resources, technologies and (of course) military might. These large battles are the eagerly anticipated reward for such a prolonged and thorough build up ..... therefore I certainly do not have the instant gratification in mind that most RPG players desire.

	28-05-2005 19:10									#27
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quote: I would envisage a fair amount of impassable mountain terrain in my proposed megascenario .... so that it would actually be a fairly tactical map with plenty of exploration involved.

the actual idea sounds good,but unless cIV was designed with this in mind,i doubt it would have any chance at being good. depending on how strong the editing ability is, it might bo doable here though

the other civ games havnt been much for tactics,besides economics

	28-05-2005 19:19									#28
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I just envision hours of MM.

	28-05-2005 20:01									#29
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Cataphract887

quote: depending on how strong the editing ability is, it might bo doable here though

Yes .... I certainly think that this type of megascenario would most definitely require some form of modder intervention in order to promote its playability.

Such innovative mods would hopefully succeed in reducing some of the potential monotony involved .... possibly including some of the more tedious micro-management-related aspects.

In many respects, mainly from the building perspective, some degree of extra micro-management might not necessarily be such a bad thing. It might actually be an extremely rewarding experience (for the hardcore CB fans at least .... several of whom were somewhat disappointed by TM's Children of the Nile) to be able to develop several (perhaps even several hundred if the player so desires) interlinked cities that can grow separately and independently of one another. This, in addition to the coherent diplomatic and military model provided by the Civ franchise, could lead to a truly beautiful gameplay experience.

[Hence my suggestion (in my "other" thread) for modders to work together under the banner of the Apolyton forum in order to create additional structures and resources for Civ 4. Each one of these additional structures and/or resources would naturally possess an important strategic purpose].

	28-05-2005 20:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Actually its not the memory or the processing that will be the major concern. This game will be relying on your gfx cards memory. I did some calculations and I think you would need a 128mb gfx card to run it smoothly. 64mb gfx card would run it ok, but not for long I assume. Btw, it does not matter how big the map is; you only need to get the graphics loaded into memory. It only becomes a problem when there are a LOT of graphics to load. This shouldn't be a problem with the 3D engine however.

tx for this