26-05-2005 19:13									#1
	Add a new small wonder and accompanying unit Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As my name suggests, I like playing with big navies. In that regard, I would like to hear any feedback regarding adding a new small wonder.

How about adding the Newport News Shipyards (NNS) as a small wonder? Benefits would be that the city that has it will will be able to build naval units twice as fast and be able to build a new unit called "Super Carrier."

The prereqs for building NNS would be to have a harbor, a pop of at least 8, be connected to steel and oil, and have Combustion.

The Super Carrier would only be able to be built at a city with NNS and it would carry 14 air units and be 1/3 more difficult to kill than a normal Carrier and have more MPs as well. Also, if there's a way to implement it, the Super Carrier should also make other civs more wary and afraid of you.

Why do I think NNS should be a small wonder? Because it is a wonder of engineering. It takes NNS 5 yrs to build a Nimitz class while the best yards in other countries takes twice as long to build a carrier half the Nimitz's size. Even then, other carriers manages to have their propeller break off during exercises

What do you guys think?

	26-05-2005 19:29									#2
	Remove this text

I may sound pessimistic on this one, but I am not yet convinced that navies, big or small, will be important in Civ4. In Civ3, naval dominance had very little importance... I hope it gets changed in some way at least now, so that having a good and strong navy would pay off and so that warships would be useful for something other than escorting transports.

A tougher and better Carrier sounds decent, though. Well, at least as long as the AI would get a decent chance at building it, too.

	26-05-2005 19:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

One of the best ways that I can think of to making navies viable is to have offshore oil. Then have a ship that can go that offshore oil deposit and convert itself into a rig. Then that would be worth protecting/taking with a navy.

	26-05-2005 19:45									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

At least we've got confirmed sea-based tile improvements. Hopefully that will be worth protection. Offshore oil sounds great, too, and is perfectly realistic.

	26-05-2005 19:51									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What are some of the sea based tile improvements?

	26-05-2005 19:55									#6
	Got spare money?

One of the screenshots shows what is clearly a fishery. We don't know anything else about specific sea improvements, I think.

Attachment: fishery.jpg
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	26-05-2005 19:58									#7
	Tired of ads?

Also, there might be oil in the sea. One screen shows a dark blob in the water, and anothre shows the same blob in a globe map. The only weird thing is that these screens are taken in the Ancient age, but this doesn't really mean it can't be oil.

Attachment: oil.jpg
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	26-05-2005 20:06									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Very interesting...

Ancient age? I thought C4 won't have any predefined ages?

But anyways, I always thought that one of the biggest flaws in the Civ series has been near irrelevancy of the navy. Historically, it has been the navy that determined the fortunes of empires. It was the navies of the Mediterranean city-states that made them powerfull, the British empire's navy made it an empire, the US military dominance in these days is made possible with the navy. It was the lack of a suitable German navy that prevented the Brits from being blockaded. Etc. OK, OK, I will stop...

Hopefully, in C4 the navy plays a more important role in empire building.

	26-05-2005 20:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Navies were incredibly important in history...They were
the aspect that decided victory or defeat in most long wars...

I hope blockades and fleets are possible in CIV4.....

	26-05-2005 20:26									#10
	Got spare money?

The screens are taken in Ancient age, as in during that level of tech - the cities are building archers then. Then again, they may have been taken with the scenario editor and not a real game.

CtP made navies much more relevant by having sea-based tile improvements. I hope Civ4 will really do the same.

	26-05-2005 20:41									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1- One aspect is that you need some key area which are actually useful to guard/protect (beaches, cities, Gibraltar-like...).

2- The only way to get a navy that actually protect something is to make so that it can actually control some area in some way. This means the implementation of a mecanism of some kind, and we didn't hear anything about that.

Maybe if it would be possible to block passing units when you decide to, or some auto-attack... but I never heard of this in Civ4.

	26-05-2005 20:47									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you play on island/continent maps, it will become likely navies could be used to protect some strategic spots. But I don't think there will be any added mechanism. Afte all, land units protect places by either numbers (creating a line along the border/chokepoint) or just by being ready to repel whatever attack.

Now, if there truly are resources in the sea, in addition to sea improvements, I'm sure that defending those will be worthwhile.

	27-05-2005 08:44									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It would help to remember why navies are built in the first place.

	27-05-2005 09:43									#14
	Re: Add a new small wonder and accompanying unit Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Navyman ...to build a new unit called "Super Carrier." The prereqs for building NNS would be to have a harbor, a pop of at least 8, be connected to steel and oil, and have Combustion.

Since you identify the Nimitz class as being the identity of the Super Carrier, should it be nuke power, not combusion as a pre-req?

I'm for any ideas that improve the relevancy of the navy in civ. A greater diversity of naval units could help counterbalance the emphasis on land units.

	27-05-2005 11:07									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Also, if trade routes can be seen-and pirated/disrupted-then it will also give navies another important use (again, as it was in CtP). Of course, unlike CtP, breaking or pirating a trade route should NOT be automatic, but should be based on the strength of the unit AND the current tech level of the nation that formed the route in the first place (at the very least!)
Of course, some units should obviously be better at dirupting/pirating trade routes than others!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	27-05-2005 22:58									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Solver The screens are taken in Ancient age, as in during that level of tech - the cities are building archers then. Then again, they may have been taken with the scenario editor and not a real game.

now THIS is a kind of remark that i expect to induce a 'soren sighting'

	28-05-2005 00:07									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Only if he is too far off track.

	28-05-2005 05:34									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Solver The screens are taken in Ancient age, as in during that level of tech - the cities are building archers then. Then again, they may have been taken with the scenario editor and not a real game. CtP made navies much more relevant by having sea-based tile improvements. I hope Civ4 will really do the same.

Well all the map can be seen too...I would suspect these screenshots are taken from a debug version of the game...

	28-05-2005 07:19									#19
	Remove this text

Of course the screenshots are taken from the scenario editor or some debug tool -- that's true for most strategy games: a screenshot where like 80% of the map can't be seen properly (or at all) due to Fog or War just isn't that interesting...

	28-05-2005 09:07									#20
	Re: Re: Add a new small wonder and accompanying unit Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Since you identify the Nimitz class as being the identity of the Super Carrier, should it be nuke power, not combusion as a pre-req?

I had thought the first super carrier was the Forrestal.

	28-05-2005 14:07									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Thing is, 'super' carriers are relative to their timeframe, especially if like Navyman wanted they would carry more air units. If it is a large air carrier from WWII, or a modern day air carrier, the number of planes they carry doesn't vary that much. The shipsize has increased quit a bit tho.

And how about for instance the English mini-carriers? They're only cruiser sized, but are more 'unique' then the more common air carriers of today.

	28-05-2005 14:32									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

On the other side of the spectrum were those so called "Carriers" the Russians had in the 80's. I think the Kiev was one.

	28-05-2005 14:45									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Russia was always a land power, not a sea power like the UK or the USA.

But in CIV that can be changed!

I reckon a single 'advanced flight'-discovered carrier unit is what we will see...

	28-05-2005 18:08									#24
	Re: Add a new small wonder and accompanying unit Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Navyman As my name suggests, I like playing with big navies. In that regard, I would like to hear any feedback regarding adding a new small wonder. How about adding the Newport News Shipyards (NNS) as a small wonder? Benefits would be that the city that has it will will be able to build naval units twice as fast and be able to build a new unit called "Super Carrier." The prereqs for building NNS would be to have a harbor, a pop of at least 8, be connected to steel and oil, and have Combustion. The Super Carrier would only be able to be built at a city with NNS and it would carry 14 air units and be 1/3 more difficult to kill than a normal Carrier and have more MPs as well. Also, if there's a way to implement it, the Super Carrier should also make other civs more wary and afraid of you. Why do I think NNS should be a small wonder? Because it is a wonder of engineering. It takes NNS 5 yrs to build a Nimitz class while the best yards in other countries takes twice as long to build a carrier half the Nimitz's size. Even then, other carriers manages to have their propeller break off during exercises What do you guys think?

personally I like the idea

	28-05-2005 19:17									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm ok with having a 'great shipyard' small wonder... but does it have to be called the 'Newport News Shipyards'? Small wonders should be generic... I don't like it how each civ has to build a 'Wall Street' as it is.

	28-05-2005 19:39									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hehe so what do you suggest?

	29-05-2005 10:07									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sandman I'm ok with having a 'great shipyard' small wonder... but does it have to be called the 'Newport News Shipyards'? Small wonders should be generic... I don't like it how each civ has to build a 'Wall Street' as it is.

Worse IMO is that everyone builds an Oxford

	29-05-2005 12:43									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

True.

	29-05-2005 17:57									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'll probably rename it to "Great University" or something...