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Bosh is offline Bosh
Emperor
Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 12:01
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Damn those activist judges! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

How does this not violate the 1st Ammendment

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.d...EWS01/505260481

quote:

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

By Kevin Corcoran
kevin.corcoran@indystar.com


An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

"There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

"This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

"When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

"Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

"The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

"Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

"That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

"I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 12:04
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The divorce decree the judge made prevented them from teaching their children how to practice their religion? This is just outragous. Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 12:07
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Wow.

Zkribbler is offline Zkribbler
King
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
time: 21:23
Thumbs down  Old Post 27-05-2005 12:16
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It's an occupational hazard with judges. They're charged with solving problems, but they often lose sight of the fact that all governmental officials have limitations.

I'm sure the judge was acting "in the best interests of the child" as he saw it. Unfortunately, he couldn't see too far due to the fact that his head was shoved up a bodily orifice.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
The divorce decree the judge made prevented them from teaching their children how to practice their religion? This is just outragous. Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.


It doesn't say anywhere in the article that the judge who made this decision is a Christian. Please take your hate speech somewhere else please...

Koyaanisqatsi is offline Koyaanisqatsi
Prince
of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 13:32
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Got spare money?

The judge is Republican...can I complain about that, at least?

Gatekeeper is offline Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 13:33 Visit Gatekeeper's homepage!
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For God's sake, would somebody please explain to this judge what common sense is all about?

Gatekeeper

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:07 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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We were taught in KINDERGARTEN that settlers came to America to pursue religious freedom. I mean that is like about a sacred concept as the flag itself.

The judge's heart is in the right place (if he REALLY is trying to keep the kid from being confused), but it's a poor decision.

What should we do with kids who have parents from different religions?

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:10 Visit Dis's homepage!
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Wiccans are stupid. Throw rocks at them.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
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Sep 2001
time: 21:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It doesn't say anywhere in the article that the judge who made this decision is a Christian. Please take your hate speech somewhere else please...


Oh please. Are you willfully this ignorant or were you born this way?

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
We were taught in KINDERGARTEN that settlers came to America to pursue religious freedom. I mean that is like about a sacred concept as the flag itself.




Nah, they really came here to impose their version of religion on other people and make them do what they were told.


Tolerance wasn't big on the Christian agenda in the 17th Century.


Not too big an item in the 21st either, it seems, in the Holy Christian Commonwealth of Bushdonia.


Now can anyone find any Quakers to hang on Boston Common, or any Jews to lynch or Catholics to disbar from public office ?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Christians are some seriously ****ed up people.


Make that "Some Christians..."

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:46 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom



Nah, they really came here to impose their version of religion on other people and make them do what they were told.


Tolerance wasn't big on the Christian agenda in the 17th Century.


Not too big an item in the 21st either, it seems, in the Holy Christian Commonwealth of Bushdonia.


Now can anyone find any Quakers to hang on Boston Common, or any Jews to lynch or Catholics to disbar from public office ?


You are right of course.

But that's what we were taught in school.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:51
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If we were told the truth about our countries histories in school we would be in serious bother

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker


You are right of course.

But that's what we were taught in school.



And that's how you end up with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and George Bush Jr, the (Im)Moral Majority and the American Family Association.

Catch 'em young, brainwash 'em and see how they end up.

Theben is offline Theben
Emperor
Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 16:05
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In Indianapolis the choices are Baptist, or if you're lucky, Catholic. There are no other options. Resistance is futile. You will be asshatilated.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
Oh please. Are you willfully this ignorant or were you born this way?


I guess it's considered ignorant to require facts before condemning someone these days, at least among hate mongers like yourself.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 20:50
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I sort of see the outrage that wiccans feel, as they are discriminated against, but otoh, this may lead to the kid growing an atheist, or somesuch, so I can't shed a tear.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 20:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
I sort of see the outrage that wiccans feel, as they are discriminated against, but otoh, this may lead to the kid growing an atheist, or somesuch, so I can't shed a tear.


You can't shed a tear for blatent disregard for a basic civil right?

That's too bad...

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 21:02
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I'm somewhat curious why a non-Christian would send thier kid to a Christian private school.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 21:06
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If telling blatant lies to your children is a basic civil right, then I don't want that right. Children should be presented with a free area to discuss, and facts as neutral as possible, not indoctrination. I'd never dare teach my children communism, or capitalism, or theism or atheism, for example. And never should anyone else.

The Emperor Fabulous is offline The Emperor Fabulous
Warlord
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 27-05-2005 21:36
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I completely and wholeheartedly disagree

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
time: 23:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 21:57 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Why does there always have to be a new outrage in my country to dishearten me?

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 27-05-2005 22:05
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quote:
I completely and wholeheartedly disagree


Elaborate.

St Leo is offline St Leo
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Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 22:13 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Isn't Wicca pretty mainstream?

I don't particularly care whether kids are infected with Christianity or Wicca, but neither side should cheat.:P

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 27-05-2005 22:14 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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I'm going to print this article out as I'm about to leave to have lunch with a couple of my friends on their break from work. I'm going to let them read it.


As for those who want to take advantage of this outrage to simply blame all Republicans for this because this one judge is a Republican, I just want to say that I'm sure that the majority of Republicans have the decency and sensibility to denounce this outrage.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm somewhat curious why a non-Christian would send thier kid to a Christian private school.


The why is easy, public schools by and large blow. I got a good idea lets pour money down that black hole.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
King
Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 23:04
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun


As for those who want to take advantage of this outrage to simply blame all Republicans for this because this one judge is a Republican, I just want to say that I'm sure that the majority of Republicans have the decency and sensibility to denounce this outrage.



You doin' queludes or something? From what wellspring of moderation cometh this benefit of the doubt considering your normal "Repbulicans are Satan incarnate" normal stance?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
Isn't Wicca pretty mainstream?


The Wicca/Witchcraft section is as big as the Christianity section at my local Starbucks...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:23
  Old Post 27-05-2005 23:11 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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Wiccans are stupid, throw rocks at them.

On the other hand, this judge is a fool, as well. Stupid activist judge.

 
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