30-05-2005 01:43									#121
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Have a cookie. You've demonstrated that when wages don't increase and there's inflation, purchasing power decreases! Good lord, you must be an economics genius or something.

	30-05-2005 01:45									#122
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Which is the exact reason the wage should be raised. DUH.

I know it's hard for you to have empathy considering your parents pay for everything, but some day when you actually have to pay your own way, you might actually realize how hard it is for people to make a living.

	30-05-2005 01:46									#123
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Ted, I never said the wage shouldn't be raised. I said raising it caused inflation and not actually economic growth. I pointed out that raising the minimum wage in general just resulted in a certain amount of wealth redistribution. You're just dodging to strawmen. I'm sorry if strawmen are the only things you can beat to death, but why don't you just type into notepad if that's what you're going to do? You don't impress any of us...

	30-05-2005 01:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ted, I never said the wage shouldn't be raised. I said raising t caused inflation and not actually economic growth.

You're such a phony. You think you can shirk the responsibilities of having an actual opinion by hiding behind your implied ones. You all went off about "OMG it's just a silly number game!!!" That's implied you DON'T approve of it.

So MAN UP, either you support it or you don't. Since you've dogged it out the whole time, you don't support it.

And besides, you didn't prove inflation. I'm still waiting for that, besides 10th grade high school text book hypotheticals.

quote: I pointed out that raising the minimum wage in general just resulted in a certain amount of wealth redistribution.

Which was the exact point I made in the very first post I made in this thread.

	30-05-2005 01:57									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You're such a phony. You think you can shirk the responsibilities of having an actual opinion by hiding behind your implied ones. You all went off about "OMG it's just a silly number game!!!" That's implied you DON'T approve of it.

It is just a silly number game, when you're trying to use it to create growth.

quote: So MAN UP, either you support it or you don't. Since you've dogged it out the whole time, you don't support it.

OK. Let's set it to $10 million per hour.

quote: And besides, you didn't prove inflation. I'm still waiting for that, besides 10th grade high school text book hypotheticals.

Once again, you should read the previous page.

quote: Which was the exact point I made in the very first post I made in this thread.

But which was not the point you made in a subsequent post in this thread, to which I was responding.

	30-05-2005 01:58									#126
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Do you support it or not?

	30-05-2005 01:58									#127
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Depends on the value. Anything over $100 million an hour and I think it might cause problems.

	30-05-2005 01:59									#128
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What a coward.

	30-05-2005 02:01									#129
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I agree, I'm not willing to take risks that large.

I haven't notice any suggestions from your side, btw

	30-05-2005 02:04									#130
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You mean like the people of Florida who voted to raise the minimum wage last year? No, they didn't have any suggestions.

Especially in high cost of living areas, raising the wage is important.

Now let's hear your opinion, whether you support it or not.

	30-05-2005 02:05									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Man, the real Ted Striker would never have gotten punked like that. Pinko Striker...

True... it's just sad .

	30-05-2005 02:06									#132
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Speaking of Silver Spooned.

	30-05-2005 02:09									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You mean like the people of Florida who voted to raise the minimum wage last year? No, they didn't have any suggestions.

Eh, you don't live in Florida.

	30-05-2005 03:02									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That's YOUR point, son, not mine. What are you, DANISH????

This may seriously hurt your feelings, Ted, but if I should point out one with a Danish approach between you and Kuci, then you are a clear winner.

Anyway, kuci isn't right about it just ends up in inflation. If that should be a fact, then economical expansion would be impossible.

	30-05-2005 03:05									#135
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No. Economic expansion occurs through discovery/exploitation of more resources (be it an increased labor pool or oil in the ground) or through increases in efficiency. Either of those can increase the real amount of goods and services that people can consume. Simple increases in wages cannot (except inasmuch as they might, possibly, lead to the two aforementioned means of economic expansion).

Changes to wages just results in a redistribution of consumption of goods in services from one group of people to another, and a possible change in the value of currency, not growth.

	30-05-2005 03:08									#136
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quote: Changes to wages just results in a redistribution of consumption of goods in services from one group of people to another, and a possible change in the value of currency, not growth.

And what's wrong with that?

	30-05-2005 03:10									#137
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*sigh* we've been over this before. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. I don't care. It wasn't the issue of debate. Ted & Co were claiming that raising the minimum wage actually creates growth.

	30-05-2005 03:10									#138
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quote: Eh, no, the whole argument in this thread was that increasing the minimum wage would drive economic growth because people would be buying more stuff.

It would mean growth for the industries which lower income people patronize, like McDeath.

	30-05-2005 03:13									#139
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quote: *sigh* we've been over this before. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. I don't care. It wasn't the issue of debate. Ted & Co were claiming that raising the minimum wage actually creates growth

Well, IANAE, but it may well do, depending on other circumstances. I suppose you can say "well it won't on its own", but I think you can say that about almost any important economic policy.

Why would it necessarily create inflation, in any case? No-one is talking about increasing the money supply and it would perhaps inflate prices in certain areas until supply was increased.

	30-05-2005 03:13									#140
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Not in the long run, since if the increase in pay doesn't end up with an increase in revenue of the company paying (say, the company makes luxury cars that these workers aren't going to buy) then you get unemployment because the company is now making less money, and therefore you simply have created a divide between those who are employed and have a bit more money to spend on McDeath, as you put it, and those who are unemployed and don't have money to spend on anything.

xpost

	30-05-2005 03:15									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: *sigh* we've been over this before. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. I don't care. It wasn't the issue of debate. Ted & Co were claiming that raising the minimum wage actually creates growth Well, IANAE, but it may well do, depending on other circumstances. I suppose you can say "well it won't on its own", but I think you can say that about almost any important economic policy.

Increase in the minimum wage cannot drive growth, as I demonstrated on the previous page.

quote: Why would it necessarily create inflation, in any case? No-one is talking about increasing the money supply and it would perhaps inflate prices in certain areas until supply was increased.

By increasing the minimum wage, you are increasing the money supply (at least, operating on the assumption that the money would otherwise not be used, or not as much of it would be used, since it's just sitting in a capitalist's bank account - your side's assumption) because you now have effectively more money in circulation.

Reread the previous page, it's very simple.

	30-05-2005 03:17									#142
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quote: Not in the long run, since if the increase in pay doesn't end up with an increase in revenue of the company paying (say, the company makes luxury cars that these workers aren't going to buy) then you get unemployment because the company is now making less money, and therefore you simply have created a divide between those who are employed and have a bit more money to spend on McDeath, as you put it, and those who are unemployed and don't have money to spend on anything.

I think the idea is that the bosses take the pay cut if the company doesn't perform, since the minimum wage prevents lowering of labor costs. Sometimes it is more expensive to downsize than to just pay the increased wages. It need not necessarily create unemployment.

I guess I'm just protesting against the simple analysis of the situation. On the other hand, I'd just tax the rich more and hand out family benefits – those work.

	30-05-2005 03:18									#143
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quote: Increase in the minimum wage cannot drive growth, as I demonstrated on the previous page.

Not buy itself, but there can be cases where it leads to more economic activity. Saying cannot is too strong. It's not that simple.

	30-05-2005 03:19									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No. Economic expansion occurs through discovery/exploitation of more resources (be it an increased labor pool or oil in the ground) or through increases in efficiency. Either of those can increase the real amount of goods and services that people can consume. Simple increases in wages cannot (except inasmuch as they might, possibly, lead to the two aforementioned means of economic expansion). Changes to wages just results in a redistribution of consumption of goods in services from one group of people to another, and a possible change in the value of currency, not growth.

Living in a country that has sparse natural resources (sand, clay, chalk and a little drop of oil) except farming, then I must disagree.

Yoy are right that increasing wages unlimted does create inflation, but reasonable and controlled increases doesn't. They create demands that creates new work wich etc...

	30-05-2005 03:24									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Increase in the minimum wage cannot drive growth, as I demonstrated on the previous page. Not buy itself, but there can be cases where it leads to more economic activity. Saying cannot is too strong. It's not that simple.

That is excatly the point that Kuci is missing. His one-company examples are of course certain to fail, but since the world are much more complex, then the result are totally different.

	30-05-2005 03:30									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Increase in the minimum wage cannot drive growth, as I demonstrated on the previous page. Not buy itself, but there can be cases where it leads to more economic activity. Saying cannot is too strong. It's not that simple.

Well, I'll concede that it can, but only inasmuch as it might cause one of the two things that can create growth - such as if an increased wage made them work more efficiently. However, if this is true it's quite likely that the company will be doing it already.

	30-05-2005 03:31									#147
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat That is excatly the point that Kuci is missing. His one-company examples are of course certain to fail, but since the world are much more complex, then the result are totally different.

In the real world it just redistributes stuff, it doesn't create new stuff.

In fact, it can actually decrease growth, because money in a capitalist's bank account is more likely to be used in the creation of new capital.

	30-05-2005 03:37									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker In the real world it just redistributes stuff, it doesn't create new stuff. In fact, it can actually decrease growth, because money in a capitalist's bank account is more likely to be used in the creation of new capital.

Quite right except for one thing - redistribution creates new demands and thereby new work.

	30-05-2005 03:42									#149
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quote: Well, I'll concede that it can, but only inasmuch as it might cause one of the two things that can create growth - such as if an increased wage made them work more efficiently. However, if this is true it's quite likely that the company will be doing it already.

The point is that the market isn't doing it.

This is the point of minimum wage legislation, and all other interventions in the market. Markets are good for some things, bad for others, and need a shove or two in most cases.

On the other hand, sometimes it might not work, or might leave the wage earner worse off in real terms.

Markets treat labor as just another commodity, but it isn't. People generally don't decide to have children based on the economy 20 years hence, and there aren't landfills of surplus and "decomissioned" young people. People aren't born, and don't die when it suits the market.

	30-05-2005 07:19									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Eh, you don't live in Florida.

So what? The people in that state obviously felt that the minimum wage was benficial, that's why they voted for it.