28-05-2005 21:49									#1
	Habermaas speaks about EU constitution. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In an rticle at the italian newspaper republica german philosopher habermaas (sp) shared his thoughts about the constitution and the stance of the european and particularly french left.

It is very interesting. The jist of it is: the left thinks that the con is too liberal, eats away on the social wins and will lead to further erosion of workers won rights. He says the left by voting it down thinks that it will make europe turn to more sicialist paths. But it is wrong, says habermaas.

The voting down of the eu con. will turn not the tide of neoliberalism in europe. the key for that to happen is exactly what has been done so far, resistance and influence on the national govs in order to adopt more peoples oriented policies.

But themost important of what habermaas says IMO is this:
for europe to manage to secure its social wins on the economic scale it needs to increase its influence outside of itself. this is the only way to counter the washington outflow of spreading of neoliberalism and its imposition by any means including war and the equalization of free elections with free markets.

however, europe cannot hope to increasie its outside influence (which as said is paramount for the defence of the socialist wins) unless it develops a more coherent and single foreign policy.

so it would seem that according to habermaas the safeguard of the social state goes through more integration and political coherence....

	28-05-2005 21:52									#2
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maybe the single foreign policy can be derived from the European Identity.

BAAAHHAEEHAHAHAAEHAAHeh

	28-05-2005 21:58									#3
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United foreign policy is a must if Europe wants to have any political weight in the future at all. That is the reason why we sooner or later have to (and IMO will) get to that point - there's no real alternative, unless Euro nations want to fall into absolute political irrelevancy.

	28-05-2005 22:01									#4
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Yes but it is also interesting that habermaas actually links the creation of a political unity for increasing outside influence to the safeguarding of the social state in europe.

	28-05-2005 22:02									#5
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Hey here's a suggestion. Maybe the lefties should come up with the foreign policy, claim it's based on the European Identity, thus everyone who says 'wait a minute this is not what I think fo the situation, this is what the left thinks of teh situation' is somehow wrong and in the minority and clearly not traditional European.

Hey lefties.. does this remind you of anything you've been screaming with foam coming out of your rotten mouths? OHHHHHHHHHHHHH you blamed Republicans of this and the US.. OH I'm sorry... did I just point out some double standards? Wait a minute,, the left can't do double standards, I mean they are the caring sector of them all, right?

There IS no european foreign policy and there won't be one, not unless it's forced upon everyone. I wonder who does it. Oh but I already know, just listening how you guys your **** won't stink. You claim to be the glue, but you're the C4. You're dead, *****es.

	28-05-2005 22:03									#6
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If continentals want to retain relavence in the world then they should seriously reform their economies. Money is the source of power yet most of Europe has enacted laws which have chased away wealth, discoraged new companies from hiring, and just made those countries uncompetitive.

	28-05-2005 22:07									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If continentals want to retain relavence in the world then they should seriously reform their economies. Money is the source of power yet most of Europe has enacted laws which have chased away wealth, discoraged new companies from hiring, and just made those countries uncompetitive.

When "flexible workmarket" means a pitiful wage, firing at will and new slavelike working conditions?
No thanks

	28-05-2005 22:09									#8
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re Oerdin: I doubt that is the point for the Eu as a whole. Sure certain countries - including big countries like France or Germany - have economical probs, but they are not going to last forever. And if those countries regain economical strength the question of a common Eu foreign policy still needs to be adressed. The divide over Iraq made this pretty clear.

	28-05-2005 22:10									#9
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Go ahead everyone and keep ignoring the fact that I pointed out your hypocricy and double standards

	28-05-2005 22:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Go ahead everyone and keep ignoring the fact that I pointed out your hypocricy and double standards

As opposed to someone which simply says "The is no common policy. And there can't ever be one because......hm.....because I say so!"

	28-05-2005 22:14									#11
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There is no common policy. That's a fact. If there will be one, SURE it's possible, unlikely but possible. BUt just because you say, well this IS our common policy, it doesn't make it one. I'm sorry but there is no common policy and not one in sight. That's a fact, no matter how hard you want everyone to think like you.

And this is why you live in a dream world. You don't consider facts to be an indicator of anything. You just say so. Hey my claim is not based on because I say so. My claim is based on the current REAL situation. Then I guess you are just a big group of Iraqi Information Ministers.. NOo... Americans are not in Baghdad.. ... yeah .. right.

	28-05-2005 22:16									#12
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and there is no euro. it's an aah ah ah ah aaaah illuuuusion

	28-05-2005 22:16									#13
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a common foreign policy is neither desireable or indeed possible (IMO), european countries will agree on some things and disagree on others, because our national interests differ. there's no reason to suspect that anything will change that.

	28-05-2005 22:16									#14
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Yes there is euro.

You see this is why you are illusioned. YOu can't see the difference between real thigns and fake things.

	28-05-2005 22:19									#15
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This is typical Euronite talk. Euronites build the dream europe of welfare state with themselves. No one else is included. If you don't fit our group, you don't get to talk about it.

Go on, deny the fact that there is no common foreign policy, there is no european identity etc.. go on, deny deny deny.. it'll just make your illusions more real to you once you say it loud enough.

	28-05-2005 22:19									#16
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I don't say there is now, but I think there's the need for one, and that's why I'm confident there will be one somehow.

	28-05-2005 22:22									#17
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Liberals

	28-05-2005 22:23									#18
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Ted Striker

	28-05-2005 22:23									#19
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Why is there a need for one? Would you please start actually backing up what you guys say? Why is there need for one? It's like this constitution thing, with huge LUCK you might be able to squeeze a vote of 50.1% if every euro votes, and then impose it on everyone. I'd imagine such important thing like constitution would require at least 2/3 popularity. Then again, true democracy has never been in the way of leftists, since they never understood the concept of freedom. They'd rather have a welfare nanny state, which says what's best for you. You don't need your choice. We got your back. Right .....

Also, if you would all actually explain me, why you want to turn europe into one big welfare state, and HOW would that exactly work IN REAL WORLD? Please, do so and go into as much detail as you can, relying your arguments on data, statistics and facts. Not because you believe in it.

	28-05-2005 22:23									#20
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Several observations:

- Very, very few people who comment on the constitution have actually read it, or at most just parts of it, and they just derive their opinion from other people's analyses and comments (who probably haven't read it either)

- People who argue pro or contra the constitution are actually arguing about what they view the EU stands for nowadays, and about what it should stand for, not about the actual constitution. Hence you get a mumble-jumble of contradictory opinions.

- The pro/contra divide crosses the traditional left/right divide.

	28-05-2005 22:25									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Several observations: - Very, very few people who comment on the constitution have actually read it, or at most just parts of it, and they just derive their opinion from other people's analyses and comments (who probably haven't read it either) - People who argue pro or contra the constitution are actually arguing about what they view the EU stands for nowadays, and about what it should stand for, not about the actual constitution. Hence you get a mumble-jumble of contradictory opinions. - The pro/contra divide crosses the traditional left/right divide.

So... you haven't read it either...?

	28-05-2005 22:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Why is there a need for one?

Already said it. If Europe wants more political weight on the international stage there is no alternative, or do you think Euro natonal states can (alone) compete with the political strength (not to mention other fields) of, say, the US? Of course you can say that you don't want this, or don't care about it - but I'd disagree then.

	28-05-2005 22:40									#23
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of course you can disagree. Unlike Euronites, I don't mind if peopel disagree.

Yeah, but what weight are you throwing around, when there's no common policy? It is desirable, when there is one. Before that, it's not. BEcause it would automatically mean goign against lots of peoples interests, who also pay for the membership like everyone else. You don't want to go with 'the end justifies the means' in these. YES EU will be more powerful once it's more united, but in order it to be united it must be so, not enforced. And certainly NOT when left is claiming this is it. The left and right and everyone in between must come together and figure out the way. So your club house is nothing but a big circle jerk until then that holds no validity.

Let me ask you this also. Since we don't get to vote for our constitution at all (because it would be No), how can you, living in EU, accept this? I know it's the fault of our leftie politicians who do not believe in voting to begin with, but how can you accept this happening in your region? Why won't you start pressuring our government for it? DO you feel it's ok when the constitution is installed, that there are big regions where people didn't even get to vote? Do you believe it makes the constitution valid at all to begin with? It doesn't make it valid. It'll make it's value less than it should be. You might ask why we don't fight for it, I don't know I am, I have e-mailed few politicians about it. Guess how many answers I have recieved? 0.

SO LET'S NOT GO before our heads but solve some more basic problems first. You don't release a violent criminal and claim he is now cured without actually curing it first.

	28-05-2005 23:01									#24
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I hope I don't misunderstand you - I don't know how the prob is seen in Finland.

Yep, I think the people should have their say about something like the EU con. OTOH even the governments of those countries which don't have a referendum have usually the legitimacy to decide about the con, because they were voted in by their people - that is representative democracy. You elect some guys for decision making. If you don't like their ideas, fine, then elect other guys. And usually you can know the political views of those guys before the elections (includings POVs regarding EU stuff). If a country has no elements of direct participation (like a referendum) you can't IMO complain about the Eu or the pro-Eu guys - it is the problem of the political system of that particular country.

	28-05-2005 23:03									#25
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So what you are saying is you don't basically give a **** if there are large parts of EU that never got to vote for constitution that binds them all?

Hey, if I vote for Joe X to be in the parliament, and Joe X with his another elected friend George Y decides that since they are elected, no one has to vote anymore, since they have 'the mandate' for everything??

I bet most dictators came in power legally. I bet some of the peace treaties were legal too, even if they held a gun in the head of the other one. What you missed is, that even thought it wouldn't be directly ILLEGAL, it just makes the constitution altogether .. less valid.

	28-05-2005 23:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 So... you haven't read it either...?

Who has read the bloated mess in its entirety?

	28-05-2005 23:15									#27
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"Maybe the lefties should come up with the foreign policy, claim it's based on the European Identity, thus everyone who says 'wait a minute this is not what I think fo the situation, this is what the left thinks of teh situation' is somehow wrong and in the minority and clearly not traditional European. "

I'd like to bring this up again. No one has answered why this is not a double standard, since the claim is made for the US conservatives who have the flag issue where they make it seem like fi you're not one of us, you are not a patriot.

Would you please make some kind of answer to this or do you just wish that everyone forgets this by not answering it?

Also when you call BS on conservative claim that they own values like family etc, I'd like to hear why you think you own rights to other values? I thought we all agreed no one owes any values.

I'd like to ask if you realize you're doing the very same thing you cry and ***** about others doing? Or are you just so blind you don't see it anymore?

	28-05-2005 23:28									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Ted Striker

	28-05-2005 23:38									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So what you are saying is you don't basically give a **** if there are large parts of EU that never got to vote for constitution that binds them all?

What do you suggest how I should think about it? If you don't have a referendum in Finland about it - why is that my problem? Change your national system then. It has nothing to do with me or with Europe.

When your goverment decides something on the national level do you always say "Oh no! I cannot participate! It is enforced on me! It is not democratic!"? That's the same mechanism. Why do you let your government make any decisions at all? Why even have a government?

	28-05-2005 23:42									#30
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"When your goverment decides something on the national level do you always say "Oh no! I cannot participate! It is enforced on me! It is not democratic!"? That's the same mechanism. Why do you let your government make any decisions at all? Why even have a government?"

Like I said, we are talking about the CONSTITUTION. Maybe I thought you actually thought it was more than a piece of paper. Clearly it doesn't matter to you to begin with so I understand your reaction. I thought this was more important to you.

So basically you do say you don't give a ****.