30-05-2005 08:05									#1
	Technology Discussion Thread: China censorship of google Got spare money?

Since Urban Ranger has closed down Asher's thread regarding because he thinks it has gone downhill. So I figured we could restart the thread here so we can have a serious discussion on sociopoltical ramnification of the google refusing acsess to Chinese Communist Party banned websites to computers acsessing the internet from China. Here is a link to the original article:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=134302

Personally, I think this very bad. Pressuring google to do this represents another disturbing incident showing how far China is willing to go to prevent it's citizens from obtaining free acsess to information rather. Rather then liberalizing, China is reaffirming it's status as a totaltarian state where the government tries to control what news the people can and cannot acsess. We can only hope that this censorship will one day end, and that the Chinese government and those who supported it can share space in the history books with all the other villians of the history's totaltarian regimes, and that one day we can celebrate that the influence of people who support awful regimes such as the PRC has passed.

	30-05-2005 08:09									#2
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Don't France and Germany have the same issue, at least in regards to censoring google, yahoo, and amazon over Nazi material?

Why is it bad when China does it, and not France and Germany? Because France and Germany censor only a heinous philosophy?

I mean, **** me, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos!

	30-05-2005 08:13									#3
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I have removed a couple of irrelevant messages from this thread in the hopes that it won't deteriorate like the other one.

	30-05-2005 08:15									#4
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Qcubed:

I agree that is pretty bad that France and Germany censor Nazi material. However, that is not as bad as what China is doing. Imagine of Jacques Chirac had decided to block the website of the Communist Party of France, and had decided to block out news articles potentital damaging to him, then it would be comparable, but as of now you can't compare what France and Germany do with what China does.

Of course, that analogy doesn't really work to well, because unlike in France, in China you aren't allowed to form an independent opposition party that is ideologically opposed to the way the government is running the country. If you tried to do so, you would likely wind up in Chinese prison.

	30-05-2005 08:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Don't France and Germany have the same issue, at least in regards to censoring google, yahoo, and amazon over Nazi material?

I remember we had something with Yahoo (I think it was with the aucitons in particular), but I don't remember any problem with google. I'm not up-to-date at all on French issues though (except those that pertain to the EU constitution )

	30-05-2005 08:17									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Why is it bad when China does it, and not France and Germany? Because France and Germany censor only a heinous philosophy?

We're not discussing Korean eating dogs. There's no reason to be defensive because I don't really see anyone defending European censorship.

	30-05-2005 08:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar It is shameful that some entities think themselves immune to criticism.

I agree. China shouldn't resort to censorship

	30-05-2005 08:22									#8
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Kuci

Wait, that's not right..

	30-05-2005 08:23									#9
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All Chinese should take a stand against censorship.

	30-05-2005 08:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Don't France and Germany have the same issue, at least in regards to censoring google, yahoo, and amazon over Nazi material? Why is it bad when China does it, and not France and Germany? Because France and Germany censor only a heinous philosophy? I mean, **** me, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it's an ethos!

Forget it QC you're out of your element!
There's a slight difference between "all satan-spawn jews must die! long live zombie hilter!" and, say, BBC, which I believe has been banned by the Great Firewall of China in the past...

China's evil refugee-murdering government

	30-05-2005 08:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker All Chinese should take a stand against censorship.

I agree with you Kuciwalker. I believe it is the moral imperative of the people in a country to oppose tyranny when it exists in their own country. But what is worse is that some Chinese actually support their government which censors the people, it is these who by their support are guilty of keeping the countrymen in chains.

	30-05-2005 08:30									#12
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Everyone should take a stand against unreasonable censorship, not just the people in China.

One thing though, is google widely used in China?

	30-05-2005 08:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Everyone should take a stand against unreasonable censorship, not just the people in China. One thing though, is google widely used in China?

Of course, you are correct about standing against censorship.

About google, isn't there alot of tech-saavy Chinese? I would assume that they would want to use the best search engine available.

	30-05-2005 08:47									#14
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Solidarity!

	30-05-2005 08:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Of course, you are correct about standing against censorship. About google, isn't there alot of tech-saavy Chinese? I would assume that they would want to use the best search engine available.

Assuming it works well with Chinese characters. I don't know. It might,

What do people think of Google's argument that it is better to create a news search engine site that has some banned material rather than being banned completely?

	30-05-2005 08:52									#16
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I think they should do that, but put in big letters "becuase of Chinese laws/whatever, we're not allowed to show you the full search results" or something like that.

	30-05-2005 08:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We're not discussing Korean eating dogs. There's no reason to be defensive because I don't really see anyone defending European censorship.

WTF does the dogs eating have to do with this?

Now, I was only briefly playing devil's advocate here. :shrugs: On the other hand...

censorship of any nature, in my opinion, is a crime. Though the difference between France and Germany's censorship is against something virtually everybody sane recognizes as heinous, I don't think it's all too different from China's thing.

Which is why I don't see why we should castigate just China.

	30-05-2005 08:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I think they should do that, but put in big letters "becuase of Chinese laws/whatever, we're not allowed to show you the full search results" or something like that.

Right, we don't want a situation where people to think a censored search result is actually an unfiltered search result. We don't people think that a censored version of the picture actually is the whole picture, which is what we risk here.

	30-05-2005 09:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed WTF does the dogs eating have to do with this?

I dunno. You tell me why you seem to be drawing conclusions based on something no one has said. It was the only thing I could think of.

	30-05-2005 09:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I dunno. You tell me why you seem to be drawing conclusions based on something no one has said. It was the only thing I could think of.

didn't know i was drawing conclusions.

'course, part of that's cause i'm imbibing tonight... no school tomorrow!

	30-05-2005 09:10									#21
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Perhaps if you'd drink more, your posts would be funny.

	30-05-2005 09:12									#22
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perhaps part of the problem is i don't use those blasted smileys, and my delivery is inscrutably deadpan.

dd, i think we're shatting all over this thread.

	30-05-2005 09:37									#23
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Oh, the huge manatee

Google censorship

	30-05-2005 09:52									#24
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I am against censorship.

	30-05-2005 10:08									#25
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Oh, and since Shi seemed like he wanted to start a serious thread, I have to say my serious opinion:

In the long run, continued censorship will wreck China. A modern society cannot hold together without totally free flow of information.

	30-05-2005 10:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Assuming it works well with Chinese characters. I don't know. It might,

You can Google quite easily in Chinese, which is why I have to change it back to English everytime I use it.

quote: What do people think of Google's argument that it is better to create a news search engine site that has some banned material rather than being banned completely?

I think it lacks principles.

Personally, I'd rather have no Google here, than one where I'm doubtful about the results I'm getting.

	30-05-2005 13:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker All Chinese should take a stand against censorship.

And then die , mowed down by the tanks of insecure , insular , and inward-looking communists . That is what happens in communist dictatorships .

	30-05-2005 13:38									#28
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi You can Google quite easily in Chinese, which is why I have to change it back to English everytime I use it. I think it lacks principles. Personally, I'd rather have no Google here, than one where I'm doubtful about the results I'm getting.

How is this affecting you? Are your results (in I assume English) being filtered too?

	30-05-2005 13:48									#29
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Maybe. I don't know. That's the insidiousness of it.

	30-05-2005 13:52									#30
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Well, it is the same country that did this:

quote: China has banned a Swedish-made computer game accused of "distorting history and damaging China's sovereignty," by showing Manchuria, Tibet and Xinjiang as independent nations, state press said on Saturday. The computer game, Hearts of Iron, made by the Stockholm-based games developer Paradox Entertainment, also showed Taiwan as a part of Japan, Xinhua news agency said, citing a censorship committee under the Ministry of Culture. "All these severely distort historical facts and violate China's gaming and internet service regulations," the ministry said. "The game should be immediately prohibited." All websites are banned from releasing the game and copies of the game on CD-ROM will be confiscated. Sellers will be punished, it said. Internet bars that provide downloads of the game or fail to stop surfers who download, install or play the game, will be fined or even ordered to stop business, it said. Earlier this year gaming regulators ordered all copies of a Norwegian-made computer game to be pulled off store shelves after alleging it "smeared" China's national image. Project IGI2: Covert Strike was accused of blackening Beijing and the Chinese army's image by featuring a freelance mercenary stealing intelligence and conducting sabotage in China. The mercenary fights in the game are across three linked campaigns in the former Soviet Union, Libya and China. With the popularity of the internet, computer games have become a booming industry in China. In 2002, computer games pulled in earnings of 910 million yuan ($A153.5 million) according to a report by state-run television station CCTV's website. Analysts predict growth in the industry will be enormous with rising demand and the improvement of the broadband network and domestic game developers. China's previous attempts to control burgeoning internet use has been targeted at politically sensitive messages or essays in online discussions forums, websites and emails. AFP

And they say Japan is guilty of revisionist history