30-05-2005 23:58									#1
	How can EU defend its social state? Full PM-box? Change here!

Free markets can be the ultimate slavery. That is not news.

We have the present situation aftr the collapse of the Soviet EMpire (much like the Roman one). We are entering a new middle ages (this time Greece/eastern roman empire too). Free markets. Worldwide. Globalization. The cheapest product.

So Miss Mercedes not happy with how much the german workers want for their job? No problem, go to China.

Yes China the land of opportunity. Republica had a nice expose. Working hours: 7,30 morning to 11 night. One sunday off every 15 days. And age of workers 10-18 years old. And you can't hold strikes there. They put you in jail.

So old europe what are you gonna do? (US killed off with the mob all its syndicates and workers consciousness, it's out of the picture)
You can't compete. Will you settle for 40% unemployement or will you send your children from 10 years old to work from 7,30 to 11 at night to compete?

Liberalism the death of civilization.

	31-05-2005 00:00									#2
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The Chinese build and the Indians program and Starchild the biochemist enjoys the ride all the way to the Singularity.

	31-05-2005 00:04									#3
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Indeed, how will old Europe compete.

	31-05-2005 00:06									#4
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The question is not how to "compete". That is a false dilema. "Competing" is the Trojan Horse for liberalist slavery. We can compete and become like the US or China. That is anathema and as easy as going to hell. The question is how to defend what Europe has. And that is by spreading the world over its social model. Or alternatively impose fines on companies that take advantage of the lack of social provisions in other countries. But who's going to do that.

	31-05-2005 00:11									#5
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well 'old europe' is going to have to adapt and reform the socialist policies which aren't working. it's interesting to note that the more 'liberal' countries in europe are doing the best.

	31-05-2005 00:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney well 'old europe' is going to have to adapt and reform the socialist policies which aren't working.

with "flexible workhours" and "competition"? So we can become like the UK with the worse medical system in Europe and a pitiful social policy? Not to mention trains that envy the italian ones and the longest hours of work?

quote: it's interesting to note that the more 'liberal' countries in europe are doing the best.

If you mean east Europe I'll agree. But they're not in the same situation.

	31-05-2005 00:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 So we can become like the UK

Y'all would be lucky to have somebody like Thatcher to drag you into modernity.

	31-05-2005 00:16									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Y'all would be lucky to have somebody like Thatcher to whip you into shape.

Luckily that was an one time British vice.

	31-05-2005 00:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney well 'old europe' is going to have to adapt and reform the socialist policies which aren't working. it's interesting to note that the more 'liberal' countries in europe are doing the best.

BTW I wouldn't characterise the scandinavian countries and finland as "liberal" countries. And from the point of view of the social state, they're doing the best...

	31-05-2005 00:21									#10
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well i mean the eastern countries, but i also mean the UK, which is doing better than continental countries.

paik, what do you think the answer is?

	31-05-2005 00:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney well i mean the eastern countries, but i also mean the UK, which is doing better than continental countries. paik, what do you think the answer is?

I don't know. I'm asking basically OK being a little bit of an ass too

I think that we need to decide if what we had so far is worth protecting. If this is the case, I think there's no other way than to "levelthe play field". For example there can be no production/trade with China if human rights - workers rights are not upheld.
But the political elites didn't care about that when they got it to the WTO.
Or we can go down the american tradition road. Rampant Protectionism and destruction of workers' consciousness. But I don't think that's good neither for us or for third countries.

	31-05-2005 00:24									#12
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In Germany I hear the workers get 2 months off a year, paid. In the US it's two weeks. You can spread that around.

	31-05-2005 00:25									#13
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Of course 2 months off but no jobs...

	31-05-2005 00:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer In Germany I hear the workers get 2 months off a year, paid. In the US it's two weeks. You can spread that around.

Two months is a bit much. Maybe in some rare cases, but generally between 3 and 6 weeks is most common AFAIk.

	31-05-2005 00:31									#15
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yeah i like the idea of applying economic pressure to china because of its terrible human rights record, but i don't think there's a whole we can do to be honest.

what we should do is ensure that trade within europe is as free as possible, take down the remaining barriers, liberalise services, get rid of the CAP, stuff like that, because that can only benefit all of us in the long run.

	31-05-2005 00:32									#16
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My cousin in Zurich used to ***** about only getting 5 weeks off a year. He got no sympathy from me.

	31-05-2005 00:34									#17
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and if 'old europe' wants to keep the old social system (as far as possible anyway), it has to find a way of making it work, and that's going to require some pretty radical thinking, which i'm not sure they are prepared to do.

	31-05-2005 00:34									#18
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Of course the question is valid if totally unregulated capitalism globally is a good idea. If not, then there's the question how to regulate without eliminating its advantages (unless you go communist and kill it totally). The Eu social model was working over decades, but now it is under heavy pressure in some countries.....no idea how this turns out, I wish I'd be an economy expert

	31-05-2005 00:35									#19
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Yeah, show him no mercy! Real manly americans like taking it up the ass from corporations.

USA!

	31-05-2005 00:38									#20
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"I wish I'd be an economy expert"

Damn good thing I'm here.

The west needs protectionist policys, NOW! The Chinese are getting away with too much, and getting rich on the backs of their children.

	31-05-2005 00:48									#21
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no proctectionism - that only hurts americas poor and americas importers, putting our economy in the crapper. unless thats what you want.

	31-05-2005 02:04									#22
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"that only hurts americas poor"

You mean the people who don't have a job because they have gone to China, India, which use child labor?

"and americas importers"

Yeah, the possible impact on Wal Mart just breaks my heart.

	31-05-2005 02:16									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "that only hurts americas poor" You mean the people who don't have a job because they have gone to China, India, which use child labor? "and americas importers" Yeah, the possible impact on Wal Mart just breaks my heart.

Well, the irony is that the American poor/lower income classes DO get a benefit from Walmart and cheap Chinese imports. Because Walmart is so cheap it actually helps them buy stuff like food and clothes with their meagre income.

	31-05-2005 02:44									#24
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Well that's right, but their income is so meagre because all that crap comes from China.

	31-05-2005 04:25									#25
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quote: Yeah, the possible impact on Wal Mart just breaks my heart.

Do you have any idea how much Wal Mart donates to local causes?

	31-05-2005 04:46									#26
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First, the Europeans need to stop trying to outcompete each other on which country has the smallest wages, smallest taxes etc. A common market needs harmonized taxation and harmonized social systems. If such harmonization doesn't happen, Europe will progressively destroy its social systems from within (btw, the sluggish French and German growth comes from the fact that these countries' capitalists heavily invest in Eastern Europe, much more than Asia)

Europe can keep its social systems, and even improve on them, if it keeps a technological edge and an imaginative entreprising population. It would allow Europe to position itself on markets that the Chinese and Indians can't master yet. Europe's main assets are an excellent education, an excellent infrastructure, a very stable political climate, a relative lack of corruption. All of these are factors for a healthy economy, that can feed social systems.

The cost of public services should also be adressed. In particular, the European institutions should make sure that a decent lifestyle doesn't cost too much. This involves a strong stance against the rise of the costs of living (the rents are exploding in many European big cities), by atificially raising supply when the prices rise too much. If the price of basic necessities doesn't rise too much, then the social services don't have to see their price explode for a similar quality of service.

The medication sosts should be seriously adressed. IMO, public medical research and more stringent public-domain laws should apply, so that medication becomes much less costly. Public-domain medication should be produced by public companies and sold without profit, to further reduce the costs.

The retirement age should be moderately pushed back, as life expectancy increases. Life expectancy is the big factor that considerably changed since the beginnings of the welfare State. And we can't waste all of our productivity gains to support the elderly.

We also need a good revolutionary threat. Surprisingly, the capitalists are much more eager to share their wealth when they risk losing everything

	31-05-2005 08:33									#27
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quote: Well that's right, but their income is so meagre because all that crap comes from China.

do you have any idea how many americans work in consumer goods manufacturing vs the total number of american poor? ill give you a hint, its minuscule.

	31-05-2005 08:45									#28
	Re: How can EU defend its social state? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Yes China the land of opportunity. Republica had a nice expose. Working hours: 7,30 morning to 11 night. One sunday off every 15 days. And age of workers 10-18 years old. And you can't hold strikes there. They put you in jail.

That may be true in some cases, but not true everywhere. I have friends working as engineers or managers in Mainland factories, so I know a bit how things are.

Of course, it also depends on the region/province, product(s), company, etc.

	31-05-2005 08:49									#29
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The EU is doomed. Prepare to submit to your new masters, the Chinese. We already have agents well ensconced in every nation.

	31-05-2005 08:59									#30
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"We already have agents well ensconced in every nation."

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