01-06-2005 17:23									#1
	Will Civ4 allow unit donation and/or selling? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I loved the ability of using a smaller country to keep a more powerful country busy in a war by donating high tech units to the smaller country. Provided a lot of breathing room...

	01-06-2005 17:33									#2
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I hope they have this feature too

I used to love exporting units in SMAC(X) to another faction that was getting beat up by a bigger faction.

	01-06-2005 23:21									#3
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i too hope they have this feature!

	01-06-2005 23:59									#4
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Not as far as we know. Judging by the diplomacy screens, I doubt it.

	02-06-2005 01:01									#5
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On the feature list on 2k games website it reads

quote: Team Play - Whether playing multiplayer or single player, team play offers a new way of setting locked alliances that result in shared wonder effects, visibility, unit trading, and shared territory that delivers a plethora of new strategic and tactical options.

Now, what does that mean?

	02-06-2005 01:19									#6
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Excellent!

	02-06-2005 01:22									#7
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Gramphos got a good eye...

How does one lock an alliance?

	02-06-2005 01:26									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Navyman Gramphos got a good eye... How does one lock an alliance?

Probably meaning the same procedure for setting up a game with locked alliances as in CivIII.

	02-06-2005 02:10									#9
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It sounds like that may be a "Team Play" only thing, though.

	02-06-2005 07:15									#10
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I don't know, if the code is already built into the diplomacy model it would be a huge overlook by firaxis not to put it in standard games. It will be available by the second patch

	02-06-2005 08:08									#11
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Well exactly. To have unit trades in ANY part of the game means the coding must be there-so it wouldn't take too long for the geniuses in the modding community to add Unit trades to the standard game-assuming its not already in from the get go !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	02-06-2005 08:32									#12
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Wasn't there a lot of concern about this feature potentially being a big exploit?

	02-06-2005 08:36									#13
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Not if you have a halfway decent AI, Shogun!!
I have pointed out that a very simple algorithm could be used to determine what value-if any-an AI civ will place on any unit you try and sell/give to them. If you ask for more than this, then they will refuse and-possibly-even take a much dimmer view of you as a trading partner. Both of these factors could be incorporated to essentially abolish the exploit factor of this feature.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	02-06-2005 08:39									#14
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Okay, I don't say it's not possible, but getting a decent AI is the key and I'm not holding my breath for this in Civ4.

Certainly there's clear logic in your post -- it's the way a human would think in a PBEM/MP game. However, it must be very tough to program the computer to think like a human or it would have delivered already.

	02-06-2005 08:49									#15
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You don't need to get it to TRULY think like a human. Just for it to 'ask' certain questions, like:

1) how many hammers did the unit take to build?

2) how many resources did it take to build?

3) What tech level is the unit relative to my current tech level?

4) What is the maintainance cost of the unit?

5) Did the unit require any population to build?

6) Does the selling civ have the same culture group and/or religion as me?

7) What is the strength and movement rate of the unit?

8) How many promotions has the unit recieved?

9) Am I currently at war and-if yes-how many civs am I at war with?

The answer for each of these questions would be in the form of a + or - point ranking, modified by the relevant civ traits of the leader. If the final ranking is a negative number, then the civ won't take the unit-even as a GIFT (and routine attempts to offer such units will start to infuriate the leader). If its a positive number, then this number (as a factor of the civs economy) will be the maximum value the civ will attach to said unit-give or take around 10-20% say. If you offer it for less than this, then your reputation with the civ will greatly improve. If you offer it for much more than this amount, then the civ will refuse, with repeated offers hurting your repuation.
That doesn't seem too hard to me!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	02-06-2005 08:50									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Wise Ass I don't know, if the code is already built into the diplomacy model it would be a huge overlook by firaxis not to put it in standard games. It will be available by the second patch

The code for transferring units, not the code for deciding when to transfer - and I'm not sure it's done through diplomacy, since in the diplo screens we've seen it wasn't there.

	02-06-2005 08:51									#17
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In Civ2, IIRC, unit trading was hugely broken, same for SMAC/X, too.

	02-06-2005 08:52									#18
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There is a "team play" mode?

	02-06-2005 09:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker You don't need to get it to TRULY think like a human. Just for it to 'ask' certain questions, like: ~snip~ That doesn't seem too hard to me! Yours, Aussie_Lurker.

Okay, again, very logical. Then why isn't this done in Civ or similiar game? Wouldn't the formula become to predictable? That's how Civ3 feels when you end up negotiating a trade agreement with your advisor, not the foreign leader. There are other scenarios where the player has figured out how the AI will respond in certain situations.

	02-06-2005 09:21									#20
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great

	02-06-2005 09:24									#21
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Nope it wouldn't, for a few different reasons:

1) Each Leader type would rank the different questions differently-i.e. one leader might be more interested in the raw strength of the unit, whilst another leader might be more interested in its maintainance cost.

2) Civics-particularly government and economics-would also influence the relative ranking of each question-which effects the final score.

3) The formula only decides the relative ranking of the unit, the final value (in gold, resources, tech etc) will be based on this ranking AND the wealth of the civ. Also, you would not be PRIVVY to such information yourself, and could only go on the value YOU might attach to the unit.

Anyway, hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

3)

	02-06-2005 19:50									#22
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What were the unit trading exploits in the Civ2 and SMAC?

	02-06-2005 20:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Not as far as we know. Judging by the diplomacy screens, I doubt it.

They could be working on it as we speak.

Or, unit trading might only be enabled with the discovery a certain tech. This would be nice, as it would prevent the worker-buying exploits that cripple AIs in the early game.

	03-06-2005 00:10									#24
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Here's a different viewpoint...

Why are all of you concerned with the play styles of others during singleplayer gamemode?

Why should a feature be excluded just because it has the potential to be exploited during singleplayer gameplay, but doesn't affect multiplayer?


If a player wants to exploit, why does that bother you?

If you are like me on the other hand, and want to play by the rules, then JUST DON"T EXPLOIT. Nobody is forcing you to exploit something - its your own decision.

Why should fireaxis fix the 'early worker buying to cripple AI' "bug", if its not really a problem? YOU, the player must make the decision NOT to exploit it.

Same for unit trading. Why would you be concerned with some redneck in the middle of nowhere about using an exploit?

Simply be happy that we have a feature and YOU decide not to exploit it for your own personal enjoyment.

	03-06-2005 01:47									#25
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Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I (the human player) am not the only one who has access to this exploit. In fact, AIs may buy workers from each other (and I believe they do, though I may be wrong). This doesn't help the AI who's buying too much, but it really hurts the AI who's selling if the sale occurs in the early game. I can't abstain from using the exploit and prevent AIs from being crippled if the other AIs won't abstain as well!

But really, why should I have to abstain from anything to make the game fun? The AI doesn't use enough mounted units. Should I refuse to use mounted units? The AI doesn't make proper use of artillery. Should I refuse to build artillery? Some players do these things. But really, why should they have to? Give me AI that doesn't require me to play with one arm tied behind my back.

(disclaimer: this is coming from a player who can't consistently win at emperor... )

Anyway, the point is that unit trading is awesome.

	03-06-2005 01:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Cabbagemeister They could be working on it as we speak.

But they have no UI for it.

	03-06-2005 01:59									#27
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Right, unless the UI only becomes visible after you research the "unit trading" tech, or whatever.

Don't give up hope!

	03-06-2005 04:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Cabbagemeister Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I (the human player) am not the only one who has access to this exploit. In fact, AIs may buy workers from each other (and I believe they do, though I may be wrong). This doesn't help the AI who's buying too much, but it really hurts the AI who's selling if the sale occurs in the early game. I can't abstain from using the exploit and prevent AIs from being crippled if the other AIs won't abstain as well! But really, why should I have to abstain from anything to make the game fun? The AI doesn't use enough mounted units. Should I refuse to use mounted units? The AI doesn't make proper use of artillery. Should I refuse to build artillery? Some players do these things. But really, why should they have to? Give me AI that doesn't require me to play with one arm tied behind my back. (disclaimer: this is coming from a player who can't consistently win at emperor... ) Anyway, the point is that unit trading is awesome.

What i'm saying is, add as many features as possible. If selling Workers between AI civs hurts the game, then don't allow that. But the player should still have that feature.

Singleplayer is about the player, not the AI.

The more features, the better. If a player decides to exploit a feature then by all means, let him do that. If players want to play within the games rules, then thats a decision those players can make by not using exploits.


Using your example of building certain types of units. Thats a problem with the AI, not with a feature. Just because the AI doesn't build Battleships & can't value their importance, does that mean the game designers should take out the battleship? Or does that mean the player should simply not build Battleships to keep it even/fair? Heck no! In this case the BB is an added feature. The problem lies with the AI. It should have a script saying build at least x% of BB's of total fleet composition.

	04-06-2005 14:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos On the feature list on 2k games website it reads Now, what does that mean?

I like the sounds of sharing wonder effects.

	06-06-2005 03:07									#30
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History tells us this would be: Lend-Lease

Great between allies, units only