02-06-2005 05:22									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed mtv then again, and no offense to anybody, but i'm kinda irritated with NIN. not because of their music, or anything that they did, but all those really annoying fans who'd carve NIN into every **** thing in the world. and actually, the mtv thing isn't just for this, either.

I carved it into my arm once. .

	02-06-2005 05:55									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Bush is now featuring in my avatar

	02-06-2005 06:32									#33
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: I think Aggie is forgetting that these same people claim that free speech includes the ability to criticize actions such as this by corporations. It doesn't if you are going to get fired or boycotted for simply expressing a political opinion. Ironically, Americans go on about free speech more than any other nationality, yet they don't tolerate it or in fact really understand what it means.

wait, so a boycott isn't expression of free speech?

	02-06-2005 06:53									#34
	Tired of ads?

quote: Except MTV is not an ordinary mainstread political channel, it is a private music channel which has every right to choose what they show and what they don't show, just as you have every right not to watch it.

See.. I was right. You don't really understand free speech, since you are quite prepared to live in a society where no-one tolerates anyone else's political opinion. Your views are compatible with that, and are hence ridiculous.

	02-06-2005 07:07									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

has anyone mentioned MTV sucks, and always will suck?

	02-06-2005 07:12									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: It's no more a violation of free speech than moderation of this site is a violation of free speech. No one's keeping you from talking; some people aren't letting you use their property to distribute your message.

And that's how stupid it gets. No one said that any law was being violated, the point is just to show how far away from free speech the current situation is.

There's more to free speech than using your own property to express yourself. When a country sucks so much that a) major mediatic interests won't air mainstream political messages for internal reasons or that b) the typical viewers won't accept display of such messages, thus encouraging indirect censorship, well, it sucks. The spirit of the principle of free speech is being violated, and it's pathetic to see it has become yet another case of being reduced to a concept of property.

	02-06-2005 07:15									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: wait, so a boycott isn't expression of free speech?

It depends. A society where everyone attempts to economically disrupt someone's livelihood just because they publicly express opinions you disagree with is not a society that really values free expression, since people's actions are attempting to prevent it by any legal means possible.

If Bruce Willis says something I don't like, it is not particularly tolerant of me to try to organize a boycott of his movies, which have nothing to do with his political opinions.

	02-06-2005 07:36									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

MTV certainly sucks, so I am not too disappointed. Either way, considering their "Rock the Vote" campaign essentially turned into a "Vote for Kerry" campaign, I do not see how this is anything but naked hypocrisy.

But then again, this is the channel that would not let Nirvana play "Rape Me" during the Music Awards, so it is not even the lowest their censorship has gone.

	02-06-2005 07:45									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What are mediatic interests?

	02-06-2005 08:11									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And that's how stupid it gets. No one said that any law was being violated, the point is just to show how far away from free speech the current situation is.

It's not at all far away from free speech.

quote: There's more to free speech than using your own property to express yourself.

No there isn't.

quote: When a country sucks so much that a) major mediatic interests won't air mainstream political messages for internal reasons or that b) the typical viewers won't accept display of such messages, thus encouraging indirect censorship, well, it sucks. The spirit of the principle of free speech is being violated, and it's pathetic to see it has become yet another case of being reduced to a concept of property.

The principle is not. It would be a gross violation of free speech for you to be able to force the network to air what YOU want to say - besides which such a situation is absurd. They can't display everyone's views. Moreover, it's not a political channel, for chrissakes. Next you'll complain that MarkG not letting us post political threads in the Civ3 forums is a violation of the spirit of free speech

	02-06-2005 08:13									#41
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: wait, so a boycott isn't expression of free speech? It depends. A society where everyone attempts to economically disrupt someone's livelihood just because they publicly express opinions you disagree with is not a society that really values free expression, since people's actions are attempting to prevent it by any legal means possible. If Bruce Willis says something I don't like, it is not particularly tolerant of me to try to organize a boycott of his movies, which have nothing to do with his political opinions.

A society where everyone looks down on those who pursue legal means of expression to protest someone else's expression isn't really a society that values free expression.

Why do you care, anyway? You've stated many times you don't agree with anything remotely recognizeable as free expression.

	02-06-2005 08:18									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The principle is not. It would be a gross violation of free speech for you to be able to force the network to air what YOU want to say.

Not really. Broadcasters are required to air certain public service messages. But that's not the point. You keep treating this as a legal issue when it is in fact a social issue. In Britain independent broadcasters aren't required by law to refrain from this sort of censorship. As it happens, they generally do refrain from it because of the public outrage it would cause and because of their own sense of tolerance.

MTV is supposed to be a place where artists express themselves. Corporate censorship of artists is inimical to the function that MTV itself set out to serve.

We have elections to sort out our political differences. There's no good reason to illegitimately extend them into other areas of the economy and all sorts of reasons not to.

	02-06-2005 08:21									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: A society where everyone looks down on those who pursue legal means of expression to protest someone else's expression isn't really a society that values free expression.

Boycotts like that are an attempt to stifle expression. Free expression which doesn't attempt to stifle that of others is always preferable to that which does because it respects the value of the other person's right.

As I said, Americans don't really understand that free speech is really a social and not a legal issue.

	02-06-2005 08:26									#44
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Not really. Broadcasters are required to air certain public service messages.

1) MTV isn't a broadcaster.

2) The rules are different for a scarce resource such as radio frequencies.

3) Public service messages aren't expression, they're OMG TEH HURRICANE RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.

quote: But that's not the point. You keep treating this as a legal issue when it is in fact a social issue.

The government cannot and should not bend society to its pleasure. Society is the people. In a democratic state, it's simply not possible for there to be some legal recourse against society not being a certain way.

quote: MTV is supposed to be a place where artists express themselves. Corporate censorship of artists is inimical to the function that MTV itself set out to serve.

You're truly deluded about the function of MTV, aren't you?

MTV is an entertainment channel. It happens to specialize in entertainment provided by musical artists. As such, it would be counterproductive from any point of view for MTV to show something that is not only not going to entertain its viewers, but actually offend half of them.

	02-06-2005 08:27									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: A society where everyone looks down on those who pursue legal means of expression to protest someone else's expression isn't really a society that values free expression. Boycotts like that are an attempt to stifle expression. Free expression which doesn't attempt to stifle that of others is always preferable to that which does because it respects the value of the other person's right.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

quote: As I said, Americans don't really understand that free speech is really a social and not a legal issue.

Kiwis don't understand that social issues are irrelevent since politics' only sphere of action is legislation.

	02-06-2005 08:35									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The two aren't mutually exclusive.

quote: Kiwis don't understand that social issues are irrelevent since politics' only sphere of action is legislation.

Of course it's relevant. It makes a huge difference to the quality of public debate. You might as well ignore the actual issue, since you don't have anything substantial to contribute as an objection.

quote: MTV is an entertainment channel. It happens to specialize in entertainment provided by musical artists. As such, it would be counterproductive from any point of view for MTV to show something that is not only not going to entertain its viewers, but actually offend half of them.

Lord knows that the media should never feel obliged to broadcast anything that might offend people.

It's not counterproductive if your audience weren't slavering, intolerant morons and if you had any guts. So much for free expression....

	02-06-2005 08:38									#47
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: The two aren't mutually exclusive. Of course it's relevant. It makes a huge difference to the quality of public debate. You might as well ignore the actual issue, since you don't have anything substantial to contribute as an objection.

What are you going to do about it. The only recourse is a) playing their game with the boycotts (which would be morally inconsistent) or b) some sort of legal recourse.

quote: MTV is an entertainment channel. It happens to specialize in entertainment provided by musical artists. As such, it would be counterproductive from any point of view for MTV to show something that is not only not going to entertain its viewers, but actually offend half of them.

quote: Lord knows that the media should never feel obliged to broadcast anything that might offend people.

The entertainment media, no, at least if it's trying to entertain a wide range of people. Try to read more closely, will you?

quote: It's not counterproductive if your audience weren't slavering, intolerant morons and if you had any guts. So much for free expression....

I agree. We should get rid of all of those people who are intolerant of hate speech and put neonazis and homophobes on the air 24/7.

	02-06-2005 08:40									#48
	Support Apolyton

quote: What are you going to do about it. The only recourse is a) playing their game with the boycotts (which would be morally inconsistent) or b) some sort of legal recourse.

Or for the people who have the most power in the situation (i.e. the broadcasters) to show a bit of spine. That's what happens elsewhere. You really need to spend some time in a free country.

As for the entertainment media, is there anything else in your country these days? I think not.

	02-06-2005 08:43									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey Agathon, are you allowed to go post a partisan rant in the Civ3 forum here in Apolyton?

Here's a hint: NO.

I guess all Apolytoners are slavering intolerant morons and the administration is illegally supressing their right of freedom of speech.

I think in all your supposed liberal rhetoric you really have no f*ucking clue what freedom of speech is and the limits to it. MTV has the liberty to choose what it wants to express and it definitely goes above your right to express your crap through their channels since they pay for their time on air and have every right to choose what to transmit.

Instead of whining non-sensically, why don't you get your own cable channel and ask NIN to perform in it?

	02-06-2005 08:45									#50
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: What are you going to do about it. The only recourse is a) playing their game with the boycotts (which would be morally inconsistent) or b) some sort of legal recourse. Or for the people who have the most power in the situation (i.e. the broadcasters) to show a bit of spine. That's what happens elsewhere. You really need to spend some time in a free country.

How would the broadcasters (actually, MTV is a cable channel) showing spine help YOU, since you are opposed to them.

quote: As for the entertainment media, is there anything else in your country these days? I think not.

Not only is this untrue, but it doesn't have anything to do with my point. The purpose of an entertainment network is one thing, in a capitalist or communist or feudalist society: entertain. Not to serve as a forum for political expression. The entertainment value of something, in fact, is often decreased when political expresion, especially controversial political expression, is mixed in. Keeping said expression out of an entertainment network in no way precludes the views from being aired.

And I'm still waiting for your in response to:

quote: I agree. We should get rid of all of those people who are intolerant of hate speech and put neonazis and homophobes on the air 24/7.

	02-06-2005 09:03									#51
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The principle is not. It would be a gross violation of free speech for you to be able to force the network to air what YOU want to say - besides which such a situation is absurd. They can't display everyone's views. Moreover, it's not a political channel, for chrissakes. Next you'll complain that MarkG not letting us post political threads in the Civ3 forums is a violation of the spirit of free speech

I agree -- and well said.

	02-06-2005 09:12									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's not counterproductive if your audience weren't slavering, intolerant morons and if you had any guts. So much for free expression....

quote: Originally posted by Agathon As I said, Americans don't really understand that free speech is really a social and not a legal issue.

It would seem that you are lacking in the tolerance area yourself.

	02-06-2005 09:22									#53
	Remove this text

asleepathewheel: he doesn't even believe in the free speech he's talking about - he's argued against it many times before. He doesn't actually believe in anything that could remotely resemble free expression.

	02-06-2005 09:35									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker asleepathewheel: he doesn't even believe in the free speech he's talking about - he's argued against it many times before. He doesn't actually believe in anything that could remotely resemble free expression.

Oh, no, I understand that this is all mental masturbation for him.

Free expression, so long as you are anti-windows, anti-US, anti-Bush, anti-religion, anti-etc.

	02-06-2005 10:31									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I guess all Apolytoners are slavering intolerant morons

Guess? I thought that was the received wisdom.