03-06-2005 08:13									#31
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That book I referenced has an extremely long and detailed discussion of the Drake equation.

	03-06-2005 08:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well, that's essentially what Diss is asserting...

interesting response.

P.S. I'm not religious (unless you consider satanism a religion )

	03-06-2005 08:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's pretty obvious, actually. If he believes life "isn't possible," in our universe, then he's essentially stating he believes the only way human life could exist here is through miraculous means, i.e. a metaphysical act of creation.

one cannot discount the fact that we exist, however. Or we think we exist.

can we be proven to exist. How do we know we aren't a dream of some other being?

this was all I'm getting at. expand your thinking. Don't just blindly accept the universe as is.

	03-06-2005 08:18									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Until we figure out how a feasible means of interstellar travel would work, I think it's fair to say any extraterrestrial contact is pretty unlikely, ever. If you think about it, the fastest we've ever gotten an object to go was the Helios satellite which orbited the sun, which traveled at about 150,000 mph. At that speed, it would take you ~11,000 years to reach the nearest neighboring star system to us, Alpha Centauri. And then we'd have to know about just how common intelligent life might be, which we don't. My hunch is that it's not very common, but no way to tell now. But even if it is common, the distances between inhabited systems may still be too much to traverse.

But I'm talking about communication contact without necessarily having interstellar travel -- from one planet to another, contact is possible without either species on either planet physically traveling to the other in a spacecraft.

	03-06-2005 08:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident interesting response. P.S. I'm not religious (unless you consider satanism a religion )

Nor did I say you were religious. I just don't think you really considered the ramifications of what you said.

quote: can we be proven to exist. How do we know we aren't a dream of some other being?

Descartes seems to have answered that question some time ago.

Now look up "solipsism." Between that and the anthropic principal, you have homework to do.

	03-06-2005 08:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident How do we know we aren't a dream of some other being?

Let me punch you a couple of times. Maybe you actually feel pain

	03-06-2005 08:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That book I referenced has an extremely long and detailed discussion of the Drake equation.

Drakes equation is a piece of sh1t. (IMHO )

	03-06-2005 08:23									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But I'm talking about communication contact without necessarily having interstellar travel -- from one planet to another, contact is possible without either species on either planet physically traveling to the other in a spacecraft.

There's still know way of making any reasonably accurate guess without knowing how common life is. What if we're the only inhabited planet in our galaxy? Or the nearest inhabited world is 10,000 light years away? With such a vast galaxy, it's quite possible that communication from another world could pass right by us without us noticing it.

	03-06-2005 08:23									#39
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quote: Descartes seems to have answered that question some time ago.

Alas no.

Anyway, stop this crap and order my friend's book from Amazon. He needs the money and it is in fact a good book.

	03-06-2005 08:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Let me punch you a couple of times. Maybe you actually feel pain

when I dream, I dream about pain. pain can be felt in dreams.

	03-06-2005 08:25									#41
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Aha, it's a shameless plug for a friend. Now I see.

I'm inclined to agree with reds4ever, if just because there are too many variables in the DE for which we have no real idea that render it pretty damned useless as anything other than what-if fantasizing.

	03-06-2005 08:28									#42
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I'm watching a different program on right now on the NG channel -- it's a program on different scientific methods that some people are using to try to find extraterrestrial life.


I shall return after the show.

	03-06-2005 08:30									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Aha, it's a shameless plug for a friend. Now I see. I'm inclined to agree with reds4ever, if just because there are too many variables in the DE for which we have no real idea that render it pretty damned useless as anything other than what-if fantasizing.

Exactly, if you don't know what numbers to plug in, whats the point?

We could all come up with 'equations'

	03-06-2005 08:35									#44
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quote: Exactly, if you don't know what numbers to plug in, whats the point?

We can make pretty reasonable estimates for a lot of the variables.

	03-06-2005 08:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nor did I say you were religious. I just don't think you really considered the ramifications of what you said. Descartes seems to have answered that question some time ago. Now look up "solipsism." Between that and the anthropic principal, you have homework to do.

I have done all my homework, now can I play computer games?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

	03-06-2005 08:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Exactly, if you don't know what numbers to plug in, whats the point? We can make pretty reasonable estimates for a lot of the variables.

True, but it only takes couple to be slightly off and you're screwed (so to speak )

So what use is the 'equation'? (and I use the term lightly)

	03-06-2005 09:03									#47
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intersting stuff at the bottom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invers...ler%27s_fallacy

actually, there's interesting stuff at the top too, but that deals more with my line of business I work at.

	03-06-2005 09:04									#48
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This is speculation on this particular signal, but here are a couple of articles about it.

the WOW signal

more on the WOW signa

	03-06-2005 09:04									#49
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quote: I think the problem is your failing to comprehend basic words...

Yes, because we all know that context is not important to interpretation at all. I'm sure he really meant that human life isn't possible...

quote: At any rate, the anthropic principal addresses even the "unlikely" argument, not just the "impossible" one, so I'm still not sure what you were *****ing about from the start.

The anthropic principal is a load of ****. Bringing it up carries about as much weight as claiming god created everything.

	03-06-2005 09:06									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There's still know way of making any reasonably accurate guess without knowing how common life is. What if we're the only inhabited planet in our galaxy? Or the nearest inhabited world is 10,000 light years away? With such a vast galaxy, it's quite possible that communication from another world could pass right by us without us noticing it.

Yes, that is all true, as well. In the future, there could also be frustration even after we have made some form of indirect contact -- it might only occur once and won't reoccur again for quite some time. And/or it would only be a unidirectional contact with no consistent, maintained two-way communication.

	03-06-2005 09:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The Drake Equation is pretty much the standard formula used for this in determining the probability of Extraterrestials. A link to it is here: http://www.activemind.com/Mysteriou...e_equation.html Bear in mind that is only for the Milky Way Galaxy. If you take into account the number of Stars in the universe and not in the galaxy, the number you start with is high enough that you end up with multiple planets with intelligent life. It makes sense, consdiering how many stars there are in the universe it would make sense that probabilistically you would end up with some other planets that support intelligent life. The problem is the Universe is so vast, we'll probably never get to communicate with them. Still it's interesting to think that somewhere in the vastness of space there is intelligent life.

thanks for this info


EDIT: And so far we have discovered something like 153 other planets outside of our solar system, right?

	03-06-2005 09:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The anthropic principal is a load of ****. Bringing it up carries about as much weight as claiming god created everything.

Really? Do explain why the Weak Anthropic Principle is bunk.

	03-06-2005 09:13									#53
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I don't think the short Wikipedia article I provided was elaborate enough on the fallacies of the weak anthropic principle.

Someone could try googling for a more elaborate refutation.

	03-06-2005 09:14									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Really? Do explain why the Weak Anthropic Principle is bunk.

Here's your homework for today, kiddo...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argume..._of_imagination

	03-06-2005 09:16									#55
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here is a link to a PDF format document


refutation of . . . . .

	03-06-2005 09:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Here's your homework for today, kiddo... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argume..._of_imagination

Pray tell, how does Argument from Ignorance apply to the Weak Anthropic Principle?

	03-06-2005 09:20									#57
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Well if you don't like that link UR, then check out any of the others provided in this thread.


Or google to your heart's content.

	03-06-2005 09:21									#58
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MrFun

	03-06-2005 09:22									#59
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Drake giving me a thumbs up

	03-06-2005 09:23									#60
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If that's what you want, all you have to do is take down UR...