04-06-2005 08:11									#31
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quote: By the second inaugural

You know, I'm taking a look at the second inaugural and I don't see where Bush indicates that the whole world should emulate us. In pertinent part...

quote: This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary. Freedom, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal, instead, is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom and make their own way.

	04-06-2005 08:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS So, is this losing control or isn't it, Rufus? Don't give me the same BS answer you gave above.

It is if the guys were acting on their own, without authority from above. That's why i said "at best."

It's not if they were acting with the full knowledge of their superiors. That's what I called "at worst."

I have no idea which it was, which is why I gave a range of options. I'd bet the administration will eventually settle for few-bad-apples, which means that the authorities aren't controlling the grunts. That will excuse the Bushies from blame while further tarnishing teh reputation of the military, which is par for the course with the Bushies.

	04-06-2005 08:12									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That DanS can still "seriously" claim that the Iraq war was justified because of WMDs despite all the contrary evidence is just amazing.

You are misreading what I wrote. That was the justification used. The justification wasn't that everybody should emulate us.

	04-06-2005 08:13									#34
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I think I should pee on a copy of the Sears' catalogue.

	04-06-2005 08:22									#35
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quote: It is if the guys were acting on their own, without authority from above. That's why i said "at best."

It seems as if in your perfectly controlled military, nobody makes mistakes and is punished for it.

	04-06-2005 08:30									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly This isn't about the act itself. It's about : 1) The fact that we've justified out little overseas adventures based on the idea that we're a model for the rest of the world to emulate. We're still better than the Islamic fundamentalists but, really, how much a challenge is that? 2) The fact that the Bush administration has lied its ass off about nearly every aspect of its splendid little war.

It just boggles my mind how people still don't get it.

I mean what has happened over the last 4 years is easy as hell for anyone to see. Yet still the spin goes on.

Bush's declaration the other day of people "who hate America" (his EXACT words) has to be the worst self-parody of the situation that has ever occured.

	04-06-2005 08:31									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It seems as if in your perfectly controlled military, nobody makes mistakes and is punished for it.

And in your world that forgives this administration everything, pissing on the Koran when we're trying to win hearts and minds in the Muslim world is merely a mistake. I like my world better.

	04-06-2005 08:34									#38
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quote: Referring to Amnesty International, Bush said: "It seemed like to me they based some of their decisions on the word of and the allegations by people that were held in detention, people who hate America, people who have been trained in some instances to disassemble, that means not to tell the truth."

what a ****tard.

	04-06-2005 08:34									#39
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Who's really pissing on the Koran and profaning it's content? The people beheading prisoners on tape and killing people in mosques in it's name or us?

	04-06-2005 08:35									#40
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RTF: Point of information, if I may. Have you ever served in the military? I have not, and so it's somewhat difficult to judge what is out of control and what is normal disciplinary material. This looks like normal disciplinary material to me.

	04-06-2005 08:46									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is "losing control of its military grunts"?

Yeah, I thought that was funny as well. You gotta at least give RTF props for an imaginative justification though, even if it is complete BS.

	04-06-2005 08:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Referring to Amnesty International, Bush said: "It seemed like to me they based some of their decisions on the word of and the allegations by people that were held in detention, people who hate America, people who have been trained in some instances to disassemble, that means not to tell the truth." what a ****tard.

My mouth dropped when I heard that speech, I was like is this for real????

	04-06-2005 08:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS RTF: Point of information, if I may. Have you ever served in the military? I have not, and so it's somewhat difficult to judge what is out of control and what is normal disciplinary material. This looks like normal disciplinary material to me.

When you setup a prison on foreign territory and waive the Geneva Conventions, then have an official memo on how to torture people without getting in trouble, that sets up the enviornment for crap like this to go down.


The FBI even confirmed that there were several incidents of abuse at Guantanamo. These FBI reports were later confirmed by the Air Force. The agents have been mentioned as being appalled at the lack of professionalism displayed.

	04-06-2005 08:51									#44
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quote: When you setup a prison on foreign territory and waive the Geneva Conventions, then have an official memo on how to torture people without getting in trouble, that sets up the enviornment for crap like this to go down.

Yes, because soldiers obviously wouldn't misbehave otherwise...

	04-06-2005 08:52									#45
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There have been too many incidents in a row for this to be "a couple of bad apples."

This is a structural problem that goes all the way to the top.

Sorry.

Why do you think they were put on foreign soil before any soliders ever laid a hand on anyone?

	04-06-2005 08:53									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: When you setup a prison on foreign territory and waive the Geneva Conventions, then have an official memo on how to torture people without getting in trouble, that sets up the enviornment for crap like this to go down. Yes, because soldiers obviously wouldn't misbehave otherwise...

Or even saw the memo

	04-06-2005 08:54									#47
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It's called a chain of command. Information is passed down BY THE PEOPLE IN CHARGE. Duh.

	04-06-2005 08:56									#48
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I've finally noticed how funny you are now Ted, now that I've finally gotten over the stinging loss of the old, cool you.

	04-06-2005 08:57									#49
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That's nice, since you can't address the topic.

	04-06-2005 11:11									#50
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According to reports, the supposed "flushed Quran" was done by detainees, not guards. Same with the urinated Quran, and possibly the one that had an explitive written in it in English.

Needless to say, I don't believe a word of it. Four guards supposedly witnessed a detainee flushing his Quran. I don't know about you, but I could get three of my friends to say they saw a UFO if it meant not getting in to trouble.

	04-06-2005 11:37									#51
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Desecrating stuff

Repressing freedom of speech and trying to censor publications

	04-06-2005 11:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous According to reports, the supposed "flushed Quran" was done by detainees, not guards. Same with the urinated Quran, and possibly the one that had an explitive written in it in English. Needless to say, I don't believe a word of it.

Your blinders must be quite good if you fail to believe evidence so overwhelming that even the Pentagon was forced to admit that it was a guard who splashed his urine on the Koran.

	04-06-2005 11:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer Your blinders must be quite good if you fail to believe evidence so overwhelming that even the Pentagon was forced to admit that it was a guard who splashed his urine on the Koran.

Are you insulting me or agreeing with me? I can't tell...

If you read my post carefully (including the section that you quoted), you'll note that the current report is that DETAINEES (ie, those held in Gitmo) are said to be the ones to desecrate the Quran. That's what I don't believe.

Why is it always these once-a-month posters that completely skew what I say to make me seem pro-Bush when I am the complete opposite?

	04-06-2005 11:55									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer Your blinders must be quite good if you fail to believe evidence so overwhelming that even the Pentagon was forced to admit that it was a guard who splashed his urine on the Koran.

Somebody is having problems with reading comprehension...

	04-06-2005 11:56									#55
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Thanks Bosh

	04-06-2005 12:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Are you insulting me or agreeing with me? I can't tell... If you read my post carefully (including the section that you quoted), you'll note that the current report is that DETAINEES (ie, those held in Gitmo) are said to be the ones to desecrate the Quran. That's what I don't believe. Why is it always these once-a-month posters that completely skew what I say to make me seem pro-Bush when I am the complete opposite?

My bad. What threw me off track was that the "current report," the one at the start of the thread, specifically stated that a guard urinated on the Koran. It did not occur to me that you might be referring to other reports.

	04-06-2005 12:05									#57
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quote: My bad. What threw me off track was that the "current report," the one at the start of the thread, specifically stated that a guard urinated on the Koran. It did not occur to me that you might be referring to other reports.

Apparently you had your blinders on, then...

	04-06-2005 18:32									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Who's really pissing on the Koran and profaning it's content? The people beheading prisoners on tape and killing people in mosques in it's name or us?

Oh, I'm sure your ironclad reasoning will pacify the angry young muslim men.

In other words, why do you give bullshit excuses instead of calling for proper conduct in your soldiers?

	04-06-2005 18:35									#59
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DanS:

quote: America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal, instead, is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom and make their own way.

This is actually what surprised me the most in Bush's sppech. I also had the impression that it wasn't merely empty rhetorics (no reason to include such rhetorics in the speech), but a genuine concern instead. I was stunned to see Bush understand the thing that the US can't apply its political model everywhere.

	04-06-2005 18:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko In other words, why do you give bullshit excuses instead of calling for proper conduct in your soldiers?

I don't see any excuses being given for the poor interogation tactics being applied here.