04-06-2005 23:53									#1
	Switzerland soon in the Schengen Area? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

From LoA's thread

quote: Avec la participation à Schengen, le contrôle systématique des personnes aux frontières doit être aboli.

"With the agreement of Schengen, the systematic border control must be abolished"

LoA: Yes, it's true. At least, if this link is to be believed.

However, it doesn't mean that there can be no control at all regarding population fluxes. When crossing the German border in the train, I fairly often see border-people checking the ID of brown people. I also hear that there are border patrols in most trains outbound from the Netherlands

Also, there is a border-check booth in any international airport. The check is considerably simplified for EU residents, but it_'s here nonehteless.

	04-06-2005 23:56									#2
	Re: Switzerland soon in the Schengen Area? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor However, it doesn't mean that there can be no control at all regarding population fluxes. When crossing the German border in the train, I fairly often see border-people checking the ID of brown people.

OMG racism!

	04-06-2005 23:58									#3
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yeah, which is true, they do check brown people. the last time i was at the airport in geneva, the only guys they pulled over for inspection were non whites. however, along this tiny road through the Jura which goes to France, there were border guards/ army who were checking everyone in both directions, no matter what color (we went that way to go see the tour de france.) schengen means less checking and more waving them through i guess huh. maybe ill vote no now.

	05-06-2005 00:19									#4
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Schengen is seriously convenient for those who cross the borders on a regular basis. In the case of Switzerland, I can think of two places where the lack of border controls can be especially interesting:

Basel. Its airport is located in France. It must be pretty bothersome to have long border waiting times whenever you want to take your plane

The Constance lake area. There's much tourism there, that can be integrated between Germany, Switzerland and Austria. The checks on the Swiss borders make it a hassle to go to Switzerland.

	05-06-2005 00:20									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia schengen means less checking and more waving them through i guess huh. maybe ill vote no now.

I really don't see why you oppose it?

	05-06-2005 00:46									#6
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dont want criminals coming into the country.

quote: Basel. Its airport is located in France. It must be pretty bothersome to have long border waiting times whenever you want to take your plane

yeah, and the train station for france and germany and switzerland is located in switzerland

	05-06-2005 00:50									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia dont want criminals coming into the country.

I haven't heard that Schengen made it more difficult to catch criminals. If a criminal wants to enter Switzerland, he can simply walk on the mountain, far from the roads and its checkpoints anyway

	05-06-2005 00:54									#8
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quote: I haven't heard that Schengen made it more difficult to catch criminals. If a criminal wants to enter Switzerland, he can simply walk on the mountain, far from the roads and its checkpoints anyway

yeah its true, only 150 out of the 600 roads into and out of the country have checkpoints. but thats still better than zero. it makes asylum more difficult too, if an EU country rejects an asylum request, he cannot request asylum into another EU country.

what about trucks and stuff. will schengen eliminate the border checks on shipments?

	05-06-2005 00:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia what about trucks and stuff. will schengen eliminate the border checks on shipments?

I don't know (I almost never cross a border while in a car). I seem to remember long truck waiting lines at the borders (while individual cars went through smoothly), but this distant memory may well be from the Swiss border

	05-06-2005 01:27									#10
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we're also voting on gay marriage.

	05-06-2005 02:32									#11
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they are also talking about deregulating the telephone industry (swisscom would lose its monopoloy) does schengen make it easier for foreign firms to come in and give us cheaper service? (like Deutsche Telekom, or France Telecom, or are those also monopolies)

	05-06-2005 02:58									#12
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AFAIK, Schengen has nothing to do with competition policies. They're EU policies, not Schengen ones.

	05-06-2005 03:08									#13
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Schengen is a pure justice matter, that is borarder control etc - no influence on industry or monopolies.

	05-06-2005 22:03									#14
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well, both mesures passed. the schengen/dublin with 54.6% yes, and the gay marriage by 58.03%. voting participation was at 55.9%

	05-06-2005 22:07									#15
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http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/...n0/2005/01.html

To Schengen, the cantons of Geneva, Vaud, Valais, Neuchatel and Bale-City voted yes between 63% and 71% to schengen.

	05-06-2005 22:10									#16
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(you can also look at past votes, like the 2001 vote to join the EU, where not a single canton voted yes)

	05-06-2005 22:45									#17
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http://www.geneve.ch/votations/2005...sujet=1&portee=

that site is a little clearer, but it jumps automatically every 10 seconds between gay marriage results and schengen by canton, and by commune of geneva.

	05-06-2005 23:15									#18
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here is an analysis piece of voting patterns:

quote: Romands et Alémaniques ne votent pas pareil Publié le 05 juin 2005 La Suisse va se rapprocher de l'UE en matière de coopération policière et d'asile. Les citoyens ont approuvé l'accord bilatéral Schengen/Dublin par 54,6 % des voix. Tous les cantons romands ont dit «oui», contre une minorité en Suisse alémanique. Ce dossier des bilatérales bis négociées avec Bruxelles, combattu principalement par l'UDC, a été accepté aujourd'hui par quelque 1,475 million de citoyens, alors qu'environ 1,226 million l'ont refusé. Au total, douze cantons et demi-cantons sur 26 se sont ralliés aux arguments sécuritaires et économiques avancés par les partisans, Conseil fédéral en tête. Le fait qu'une petite majorité de cantons et demi-cantons, treize alémaniques et le Tessin, se soit prononcée contre n'a joué aucun rôle. Cet objet n'était en effet soumis qu'à la majorité du peuple. Neuchâtel en tête Neuchâtel s'est montré le plus enthousiaste de tout le pays, avec un taux d'acceptation de 70,9 %. A l'exception du Valais (53,5 %), la barre des 60 % d'avis favorables a été franchie dans tous les cantons frontaliers romands. Vaud a dit «oui» à Schengen/Dublin à 67,6%, Genève à 62,9% et le Jura à 60,9%. Fribourg, sans frontière extérieure, l'a soutenu à 59,3%, et Berne à 56,8%. En Suisse alémanique, la palme revient à Bâle-Ville, avec 64,6%. Ce demi-canton avait été en première ligne au printemps 2004 quand l'Allemagne avait appliqué Schengen à la lettre et effectué des contrôles tâtillons à la frontière, générant de gros bouchons. Suivent Bâle-Campagne (58,3%) et Zurich (57,9%). Soleure et Zoug sont un peu en deçà (tous les deux 53,4%). «Non» alémanique Contrairement à la Suisse romande, le facteur «région frontalière» a fait long feu en Argovie (51,6%) ainsi qu'en Suisse orientale. Schengen/Dublin a échoué aussi bien à St-Gall (53,1%) qu'à Schaffhouse (53,5%), en Thurgovie (55,6 %) et dans les Grisons (55,4 %). L'UDC, principal acteur du référendum, a enregistré son meilleur score à Appenzell Rhodes-Intérieures, où le refus a atteint 68,5 %. Suivent Schwytz et le Tessin, ex aequo avec 61,9 % de «non». Le spectre brandi par ce parti d'une adhésion détournée à l'Union européenne (UE), ainsi que d'une hausse de la criminalité et du chômage semble avoir particulièrement fait mouche en Suisse centrale. Le rejet a oscillé entre 61 % et 57,3 % à Uri, Glaris, Obwald et Nidwald. Lucerne fait quelque peu exception, avec 50,4 % de «non». Système SIS L'accord Schengen/Dublin vise à améliorer la collaboration dans le domaine de la sécurité grâce notamment au système d'avis de recherche commun SIS. Parallèlement, les contrôles systématiques aux frontières (sauf pour les marchandises et dans les aéroports) seront supprimés. La sauvegarde du secret bancaire et l'extension du visa unique Schengen, importantes pour la place financière et le tourisme, ont aussi été mises en avant par les partisans. Quant aux requérants d'asile déboutés dans un pays de l'UE, ils ne pourront plus déposer de demande en Suisse. (ats)

and for ming

quote: SWISS-FRENCH AND SWISS GERMANS VOTE DIFFERENTLY June 5th 2005 Switzerland is going to integrate more closely with the EU with regards to police and asylum cooperation. The citizens have approved the bilateral agreement Schengen/Dublin by 54.6% of the vote. All the swiss-french cantons voted "yes" against a minority in swiss-germany. This package of bilaterals negociated with Brussels, fought against mostly by the UDC (Union Democratic du Centre, Democractic Centrists Alliance, the strongest party in switzerland), recieved 1.475 million votes for and 1.226 million votes against. In total, twelve cantons and half cantons out of 26 voted for the increased security and more open markets that proponents say will be a result of a yes vote on the accords. The Federal council was one of the strongest supporters in favor of the accords. The fact that a small majority of cantons and half cantons, 13 swiss german and Ticino (Italian) voted against the accords, will have no effect on the outcome. This success of the treaty dependended on a majority vote by the people. Neuchatel lead the way Neuchatel (Swiss French) was the strongest bastion for yes vote in the country, with a total yes vote of 70.9%. With the exception of Valais (Swiss French, 53.5%), all other swiss french border cantons voted yes at percentages higher then 60% (Vaud 67.6%, Geneva 62.9%, Jura 60.9%) Fribourg (2/3 Swiss French), a canton not on the frontier, had 59.3% yes vote, and Berne (Swiss German) checked in at 56.8% In Swiss-Germany, the crown goes the Bale-City, with 64.4% for the accords. This half canton was on the front lines in 2004 when Germany decided to apply Schengen to the letter, and the canton saw huge traffic jams at the border. Right behind Bale-City was Bale-Country (58.3%) and Zurich (57.9%) Soleure and Zoug checked in behind them at 53.4% for the accords. Swiss-German 'No' Unlike Swiss-France, the border proximity factor did not play a role, as Argovei (51.6%), St. Gall (53.1%), Schaffhouse (53.5%), Thurgovie (55.6%) and Graubunden (55.4%) all voted against Schengen. The UDC, the main detractors of the treaty, scored their biggest success in Appenzell Interrhoden (68.5%. note: thats where generations of my family come from. they lived there until my grandpa moved to Geneva/Vaud.) Next was Schwyz and Ticino , both voted no at 61.9%. The fact that the UDC sold Schengen as the first step towards joining the EU, along with the high crime rates and high unemployment rates seemed to have worked in central switerland. THe no vote oscilated between 61% and 57,3% in the cantons of Uri, Glaris, Obwald and Nidwald. Lucerne checkced in at 50.4% no. The Schengen accords aim to increase and streamline cooperation between police and security forces on both sides of the border (notably the use of the SIS system to track people.) On top of that, there will no longer be any border security (merchandise and the airports will still be checked.) Swiss banking laws will not be affected by Schengen. A new visa will now be available for the entire schengen area, streamlining tourism. Asylum seekers who are rejected by an EU country can no longer request asylum in switzerland.

	06-06-2005 03:13									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia voting participation was at 55.9%

Not bad

Isn't this participation much higher than normal?

	06-06-2005 05:01									#20
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yeah, its about 2% higher then normal. European referendums usually run at a higher participation rate then usual. (the 2001 referendum on joining the EU had 55.8% participation. usually, the more controversial or important the issue, the bigger the participation.

the vote to join the UN also had 58.4% participation rate in 2002.