05-06-2005 09:35									#31
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It is interesting. Watching the first movie again, I came to the conclusion that JohnT was correct in saying that movie had problems in its pacing. I realize the Battle of Yavin was tacked on, but it should have been more than an afterthought. It deserved more than 15 minutes, or however it was.

	05-06-2005 09:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh come off it... what you didn't think Luke would hit the spot which was "just like Begger's Canyon back home"?

There's suspense even after I've seen it a dozen times. It's exciting. There's a focus to the battle - that's the big thing. The opening battle in ROTS didn't seem like there was any real danger. They seemed to be just on a pleasure cruise over to the enemy ship.

quote: Well the whole Seperatists trying to kidnapp the Chancellor and attacking the capital may have been some 'point'. What would you have liked to have seen? Someone who we just find out was close to Anakin and Obi-Wan die all of a sudden?

Why aren't they just flying away then? And I was talking about Anakin and Obi-wan - they're just flying along, oh, I'm going to knock these things off your wings (WTF? Those robots were the most retarded thing EVAR - why have it poke holes in the ship when you could just put a bomb on the thing?), oh, it's OK, we can just fly straight since it's not like anyone's shooting at us, wait WTF?

	05-06-2005 09:45									#33
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quote: There's suspense even after I've seen it a dozen times. It's exciting. There's a focus to the battle - that's the big thing. The opening battle in ROTS didn't seem like there was any real danger. They seemed to be just on a pleasure cruise over to the enemy ship.

Well I thought the droids who were trying to strip Obi-Wan's ship were fairly dangerous. And yes, they were acting like a pleasure cruise. Another example of Jedi arrogance which kills them later.

Though the Battle of Yavin is not that exciting. Watching it last night, it seemed tacked on and way too short. If you can show minutes after minutes of sneaking around on the Death Star, you can extend the big, huge battle scene!

quote: oh, it's OK, we can just fly straight since it's not like anyone's shooting at us, wait WTF?

What in the Hell are you talking about? Did you miss the first appearance of missiles in Star Wars (and tracking missiles at that).

quote: Why aren't they just flying away then?

Yeah, show your most vulnerable parts of the ship (the ends) while the opposition is hammering you as you are waiting for your quarry. That wouldn't have destroyed their capital ships or anything.

	05-06-2005 09:51									#34
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well I thought the droids who were trying to strip Obi-Wan's ship were fairly dangerous. And yes, they were acting like a pleasure cruise. Another example of Jedi arrogance which kills them later.

No, it was stupid. There should have been ships shooting at them. There weren't, practically. They flew for kilometers absolutely straight, and they don't get shot out of the sky? And the droids were idiotic.

quote: Though the Battle of Yavin is not that exciting. Watching it last night, it seemed tacked on and way too short. If you can show minutes after minutes of sneaking around on the Death Star, you can extend the big, huge battle scene!

Yes it is. It's an actual battle.

quote: oh, it's OK, we can just fly straight since it's not like anyone's shooting at us, wait WTF?

quote: What in the Hell are you talking about? Did you miss the first appearance of missiles in Star Wars (and tracking missiles at that).

Wow, I forgot about that bit too. Their missile-dodging routine made me groan. But yeah, the whole time they were knocking the droids off, they don't have some turbolaser battery blast them to pieces.

quote: Why aren't they just flying away then?

quote: Yeah, show your most vulnerable parts of the ship (the ends) while the opposition is hammering you as you are waiting for your quarry. That wouldn't have destroyed their capital ships or anything.

You have all of the ships except the one with the Chancellor fly away. It's called a rear guard.

	05-06-2005 09:58									#35
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quote: No, it was stupid. There should have been ships shooting at them. There weren't, practically. They flew for kilometers absolutely straight, and they don't get shot out of the sky? And the droids were idiotic.

I'd think the capital ships hammering away at each other took most of their attention. The droids and the missiles were sent to deal with the two, but they didn't work.

quote: Yes it is. It's an actual battle.

And not that good of one, really.

quote: But yeah, the whole time they were knocking the droids off, they don't have some turbolaser battery blast them to pieces.

Because well... capital ships needed them to shoot against other capital ships?

quote: You have all of the ships except the one with the Chancellor fly away. It's called a rear guard.

Unless the Chancellor wants to keep it close to the fight so his plan continues as he wants it.


I have the feeling you'd complain if there were ships sent after them that were deposed in a similar time frame as the droids and missiles where. They had only a small time in the movie for the space battle. Would you have rather seen fighters get blasted away like red shirts were piloting them?

	05-06-2005 10:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: No, it was stupid. There should have been ships shooting at them. There weren't, practically. They flew for kilometers absolutely straight, and they don't get shot out of the sky? And the droids were idiotic. I'd think the capital ships hammering away at each other took most of their attention. The droids and the missiles were sent to deal with the two, but they didn't work.

They can pay enough attention to say "lets launch these droids at the jedi" and "lets shoot missiles at the jedi" but not "oh look, the jedi aren't actually maneuvering while they deal with our droids, let's end their lives right now"?

quote: But yeah, the whole time they were knocking the droids off, they don't have some turbolaser battery blast them to pieces.

quote: Because well... capital ships needed them to shoot against other capital ships?

2 Jedi >> 2 shots' worth of damage to an enemy capital ship.

quote: Unless the Chancellor wants to keep it close to the fight so his plan continues as he wants it.

And so isn't the republic like "wtf, why are they acting like morons?"

	05-06-2005 10:08									#37
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quote: They can pay enough attention to say "lets launch these droids at the jedi" and "lets shoot missiles at the jedi" but not "oh look, the jedi aren't actually maneuvering while they deal with our droids, let's end their lives right now"?

And perhaps they had no idea that two ships in the middle of hundreds were not doing much. What, did they have neon signs outside the ship saying JEDI HERE?!

quote: 2 Jedi >> 2 shots' worth of damage to an enemy capital ship.

Read above.

quote: And so isn't the republic like "wtf, why are they acting like morons?"

The Republic doesn't know the total motivation. They are totally confused and trying to bring down as many Seperatist ships as possible. There may be other kidnappings (of Senators perhaps) planned. Or perhaps the goal is to cripple the Republic fleet and as a secondary goal to capture the Chancellor and hold him hostage if things get too hairy.

I mean if you really want to ask "wtf, why are they acting like morons", there are plenty of places to say that. Such as in RotJ, the Death Star is shielded by an Endor base and yet that base is so lightly guarded that 3 people can get in and shut down the shield. "WTF? Why are they acting like morons?"

	05-06-2005 10:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They can pay enough attention to say "lets launch these droids at the jedi" and "lets shoot missiles at the jedi" but not "oh look, the jedi aren't actually maneuvering while they deal with our droids, let's end their lives right now"? And perhaps they had no idea that two ships in the middle of hundreds were not doing much. What, did they have neon signs outside the ship saying JEDI HERE?!

Given that they're flying Jedi ships... yes.

	05-06-2005 10:16									#39
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quote: Given that they're flying Jedi ships... yes.

I don't seem to remember them fighting in special Jedi ships. Perhaps I'm mistaken on that point, but the opposition did have to deal with ton of fighters and capital broadships. Them realizing there are two Jedis in the mass of carnage seems silly.

Furthermore, they may have been declared "off limits" by the leaders of the assault (Dooku, but really Palpatine).

	05-06-2005 10:18									#40
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Great movie, I really enjoyed the Revenge of the Sith. I think they would do well just packaging the 4 movies together, RotS, ANH, ESB, and RotJ.

	05-06-2005 10:18									#41
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They're flying the A-wing like ships, not the X-wing like ships that all the Republic pilots are flying.

quote: Furthermore, they may have been declared "off limits" by the leaders of the assault (Dooku, but really Palpatine).

That's weak. Really weak.

	05-06-2005 10:25									#42
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quote: That's weak. Really weak.

Um... why? The capital ship commanders may have been told to forget about all fighters and focus on the other capital ships. And seperatist fighters to focus on certain areas of the battlefield, saying that the HQ ship would deal with any threats to it.

Furthermore two small A wing ships in the mass of the biggest battle in the history of the universe are not that easily seen. I mean do you expect squadron leaders in the midst of dogfights to say, hey, I see an A wing up on the other side of that ship... lets go after that instead of dealing with the X-wings here?

	05-06-2005 10:26									#43
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quote: Um... why? The capital ship commanders may have been told to forget about all fighters and focus on the other capital ships.

Which is why they sent the droids and missiles after the Jedi?

Oh, and those missiles shoot down your "off limits" theory.

	05-06-2005 10:38									#44
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quote: Which is why they sent the droids and missiles after the Jedi? Oh, and those missiles shoot down your "off limits" theory.

I don't think the buzz droids were sent after specific objects, just told to cause havoc against the enemy. As for the missles, some ship may have seen the fighters and decided to shoot a few missles at them to make it easier for a seperatist fighter to shoot them down, before going back to the capital ship across from them. Obviously Anakin and Obi-Wan were not in the middle of the battle.

And it doesn't necessarily shoot down the off limits theory if it was foreseen that they could get past those trials without that much trouble.

	05-06-2005 10:40									#45
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quote: I don't think the buzz droids were sent after specific objects, just told to cause havoc against the enemy.

They couldn't've be programmed to avoid Jedi?

quote: As for the missles, some ship may have seen the fighters and decided to shoot a few missles at them to make it easier for a seperatist fighter to shoot them down, before going back to the capital ship across from them.

Exactly. Someone was trying to shoot them down. They just sucked.

quote: Obviously Anakin and Obi-Wan were not in the middle of the battle.

Actually, the thing is supposed to give you the impression that they ARE - it just doesn't manage to do so.

	05-06-2005 10:44									#46
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quote: They couldn't've be programmed to avoid Jedi?

Perhaps they weren't. Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't the only Jedi up there. The buzz droids may have been one of the biggest weapons against opposing fighters, allowing capital ships to not worry about the Republic fighters.

quote: Exactly. Someone was trying to shoot them down. They just sucked.

Um... and? You are telling me the TIE Fighters trying to take down the Millenium Falcon at the Battle of Endor were good?

quote: Actually, the thing is supposed to give you the impression that they ARE - it just doesn't manage to do so.

I didn't get that feeling at all. It seemed they were above the fray, with all the capital ships below them

	05-06-2005 11:05									#47
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Why is it that Imran gets PWND in every single Star Wars thread?

	05-06-2005 11:08									#48
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This from the person who thinks Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars film .

	05-06-2005 11:09									#49
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Jaguar, why do you constantly side with Kuciwalker?

	05-06-2005 11:10									#50
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Because he's always right.

	05-06-2005 11:12									#51
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... with his 500 bathrooms, which every kid in America has

	05-06-2005 11:14									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui ... with his 500 bathrooms, which every kid in America has

Trolling
Imran

Oh, and you must admit Jaguar/Kuci, the Ewoks were probably worse than Jar Jar Binks, and there is no way that a bunch of furry midgets could have taken down a galactic empire.

	05-06-2005 11:19									#53
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Lord Nuclear

Ted Striker

	05-06-2005 11:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui This from the person who thinks Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars film .

ESB and ROTJ share that honor. ROTJ is more underrated. Of course, ROTJ is set up by the previous films.

ROTJ has the best Space Battle of the series. By far. It is the only original trilogy movie where the Emperor gets a significant role. It redeems Vader.

Of course, Star Wars (no, not ANH) is mostly an exposition of the Star Wars universe, so it can't have a lot of this stuff.

Besides the Ewoks, nobody ever comes up with a legitimate complaint about Return of the Jedi. They act as if that is enough.

It's the only one where Mark Hamill seems comfortable in his role. ("NO!! It's not true!!1" anyone?)

	05-06-2005 11:23									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Return of the Jedi, Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars, Revenge of the Sith. My reason [for placing ROTJ first] differs from Jaguar's; it is that no sci-fi movie has ever even come close to matching what is the epic science fiction space battle. That is, because it occupies a special place in the SF genre.

Damn right!

RotJ is the mother of all epic movies, in my opinion it was far more grandiose than any other SW or even LotR movie. It's almost orgasmic to have the space battle, the land battle, and the lightsaber duel going on at the same time when just one of these three scenes would have been enough to make most movies worth watching.

Some people hate the Ewoks. I don't. I thought it was an awsome analogy of "poor third world country" defeating the mighty Empire in battle. Very post-colonial

I also thought RotS, despite its sometimes ridiculous dialogue and acting, was slightly superior to ANH because of the grandiose scope. ANH was a great introduction to the series but it is very slow compared to most of the other films.

My ranking

1 - RotJ (11!!! Greatest movie of all time!)
2 - ESB (10)
3 - RotS (9.0)
4 - ANH (9.0)
5 - AotC (8.0)
6 - TPM (6.0)

	05-06-2005 11:24									#56
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Analking turning into Vader > Vader turning back to Analkin

Forget the acting or the script, but the general idea of RotS is MUCH MUCH better than RotJ. Remember, everyone likes when the evil guys win.

	05-06-2005 11:26									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Damn right! RotJ is the mother of all epic movies, in my opinion it was far more grandiose than any other SW or even LotR movie. It's almost orgasmic to have the space battle, the land battle, and the lightsaber duel going on at the same time when just one of these three scenes would have been enough to make most movies worth watching. Some people hate the Ewoks. I don't. I thought it was an awsome analogy of "poor third world country" defeating the mighty Empire in battle. Very post-colonial I also thought RotS, despite its sometimes ridiculous dialogue and acting, was slightly superior to ANH because of the grandiose scope. ANH was a great introduction to the series but it is very slow compared to most of the other films. My ranking 1 - RotJ (11!!! Greatest movie of all time!) 2 - ESB (10) 3 - RotS (9.0) 4 - ANH (9.0) 5 - AotC (8.0) 6 - TPM (6.0)

Not to stray off topic, but the battles of Helms Deep and Pelenor Fields were simply awesome, and I think were probably the best battles in the history of movies.

	05-06-2005 11:29									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Analking turning into Vader > Vader turning back to Analkin Forget the acting or the script, but the general idea of RotS is MUCH MUCH better than RotJ. Remember, everyone likes when the evil guys win.

James Earl Jones >>>>>> Hayden Christiansen.

	05-06-2005 11:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'm sorry, you're clueless () The battle was CRAP. It was some explosions and ships flying right next to each other. It was boring. There was no point.

I wouldn't say it was crap, rather I'd say it was overdone. Too many ships here and there and no real sense of what is happening or what is the objective other than to pound each other tactic-less battle of Jutland Style.

Still, it was a great intro though it lacked the suspense of the much more sober Battle of Yavin or the much more spectacular Battle of Endor. We knew what had to be done at Yavin and how they had to do it. The suspense lied on if they would accomplish it. Whoever won the Battle of Coruscant was utterly irrelevant since all that mattered was the Palpatine kidnapping.

No words can express just how kick-ass the Battle of Endor was. To me it is the single greatest movie scene of all time. It was suspenseful, visually striking, made your heart stop when you realized that the Death Star WAS operational, and overall you knew that the fate of the galaxy hinged on this last battle. Awsome

	05-06-2005 11:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Not to stray off topic, but the battles of Helms Deep and Pelenor Fields were simply awesome, and I think were probably the best battles in the history of movies.

But you didn't have THREE battles going on at the same time.